OVERVIEW: Process Pedagogy is something to consider both historically and theoretically. Historically and Theoretically, it is one of the very first moments when people who taught writing thought about what we actually do when we try to write and thought about the implications--of that process--for writers.
It comes at a particular historical moment in literacy education. And the theories of process have forever shaped the writing classroom experience from K-12 through graduate education. As scholars of Rhetoric and Composition (or writing studies) have moved beyond process, the practice of process still remains. Not one of us in this class today is not a product of process pedagogy. And, further, process has been challenged, critiqued, returned to, and critiqued again as a foundational concept in the field, as the readings tonight should indicate. TONIGHT'S PROMPT: From our Post-Process perspective, and considering the readings from tonight, can you identify some concepts and/or practices discussed that are a part of your own practice as a writer? As a teacher? Further, as a working professional in a classroom, what commentary or critique do you have about the legacy of process pedagogy? RESPOND TO THE PROMPT IN ROUGHLY 250-300 WORDS. Then, read the responses of your colleagues. Identify places of agreement and disagreement and respond accordingly in writing. Once we've spent some time writing and reading silently, we can return to a class discussion about key ideas.
40 Comments
Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 03:36:52 pm
One thing from the reading that stood out to me (both as a writer and a teacher) was what Murray proposes in "Writing was Process: How Writing Finds Its Own Meaning" (discussed in the essay by Chris Burnham and Rebecca Powell). He proposes that there is an instrumental relationship between composing and meaning-making and that this is comprised of three related activities: rehearsing, drafting, and revising. As a writer, I constantly find myself writing mini essays or doing pre-writing (aka rehearsing) before tackling the final product. As a teacher, I have been giving my students more and more opportunities to write in bursts by doing shorter, low stake writing assignments (journaling, discussion posts, warm ups, mini essays, etc. I find that this is helpful for both me and my students is its a great way to flex the writing muscle before writing a substantial piece. You wouldn't run a marathon without training, or perform in a play without rehearsing, so why would you write an essay without practicing? In terms of drafting, I don't think I have ever submitted a piece of writing without having done at least 3 drafts. Many times, my first draft and final draft differ quite a bit. For me, drafting is a natural experience. However, I know many of my students HATE drafting. They hate the process of receiving feedback (from me and their peers) and revisiting their work. It's as if their essay is tied up in a neat little bow and I have undone it entirely. That is why I put so much emphasis on the drafting process and make writing an entirely in class experience complete with brainstorming, writing, conferencing, peer review, editing, etc. Lastly, revising. I admit this is where I struggle the most. I will revise an unfinished piece of work extensively... but a "finished" piece of work? Never. I have received many final papers back from professors who give me a small list of revisions to make/suggestions for publication and I never follow through. I hate that I am this person because I do not want my students to be like this, and yet I am!
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Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 03:38:41 pm
Please ignore the many errors in my post haha
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LT
2/6/2024 03:44:06 pm
Students hate feedback because they see feedback as evaluation--and, historically and in most other classes, that's exactly and only what it is. How many times do students get feedback that only justifies a grade without the option to revise. This is why I have tried to embrace rhetorical power as a strategy for discussing what others might call error. And it's also why I try to make writing a public act as often as possible (Kasner and Wardle). Like you ask them to do training runs to build to a larger piece, I do a lot of sharing without grading so students get used to getting and giving meaningful feedback.
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Cassie Peterson
2/6/2024 03:54:37 pm
My students also hate drafting, but I think my problem lies more in engagement. I'm not sure I know how to make a week or 2 of editing and drafting "fun" or "interesting" and I often lose kids after the graphic organizer. I have tried timers for urgency, but my students will either ignore the timer or shut down, so that got scrapped. I'm simply not sure multiple drafts are worth it.
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Dawna
2/6/2024 03:55:43 pm
OK so your post made me think more about how I'm also not necessarily always practicing what I preach when it comes to my own writing process vs. what I teach my students. Except for me, instead of the revising/presenting part, it's the drafting part. I'm actually a renegade English major and kind of hate drafting and essentially don't do it unless I'm forced to. (I think I do more drafting than I give myself credit for because I do proofread....but I avoid it at all costs). I'm not sure if it's because it was super drilled into me as a student? But I definitely make my students draft and re-draft, and I emphasize how important it is in the writing process. Which I guess is sort of hypocritical, but I think it is necessary as a basic skill (similar to what I talked about with the linear stages of writing being useful for beginning/struggling writers but not necessarily true of an "authentic" writing process).
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Sara
2/6/2024 04:01:15 pm
I also am guilty of never revising my work--yet expecting my students to do so. It is hard when there is no incentive/reason to revise a final draft and I think many of our students would feel the same way. Although it would take oodles of our time, I wonder if we could "grade" students for revising? Just an idea!
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LT
2/6/2024 04:09:16 pm
I do. I ask students to tell me what revisions they made or didn't made and write an argument for why. I ask them to tell me what feedback from their classmates was most helpful so I can give credit to the students who take workshopping seriously. I tell students who are good workshoppers that they are so. I essentially value the revision more than the original draft.
Devon
2/6/2024 04:11:30 pm
Guilty too! I totally feel the incentive aspect as well with my students. I had teachers in the past grade us on revision essays. My coworker practiced this last year, and only half the student revised!! I don't know...I find it discouraging when we create the additional assignment opportunity for them, yet not all student's will go for the second chance.
Devon Melo
2/6/2024 03:38:06 pm
I am definitely a student of process. I practice drafting, feedback, revising, and repeating this since being back at BSU for my graduate. I remember the hamburger visual of what to put in a body paragraph (I don't know if this was middle or elementary school?). I remember outlining my draft in high school, but before I could do that I had to have my thesis statement checked. As a teacher, I think I use a bit of both process and expressive methods in my classes - however, it depends on the level (CP or Honors).
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Devon
2/6/2024 03:44:57 pm
Replying to myself to add more-another key takeaway thats applicable to my classroom is giving students choice in their writing. I don't remember which reading it was directly from but I know it said something along the lines of "students enjoy process if they have choice to help establish and find their voice." I also agreed with the part from Tobin where they talked about teacher language and shifting word choice to looking for revision or gaps rather than just "errors." I try to model this in my classes to build student confidence in writing, as this is something that I've struggled with.
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Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 04:04:39 pm
I think giving students choice in their writing is such a powerful tool to get them to write (and to enjoy it). Sometimes, I forget how excited students feel when they know they get to pick the topics of their own essays. I am teaching One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest right now, and I created an entire prompt list for mini essays. I am excited to see which prompts my students pick.
LT
2/6/2024 03:46:35 pm
Risks might mean error. Students are coded not to want to encounter error. And process when it is lockstep--has anyone ever been graded for how well they follow process? I know folks who have done this to students--it's not really in the spirit of process anymore is it? Because, as Clark and Guide to Pedagogy points out, process should be idiosyncratic. But idiosyncracy is difficult in a classroom setting.
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Dawna
2/6/2024 03:59:12 pm
Very much agree with this idea that the structure/step by step approach is so useful as a basic writing skill. Genuinely torn about it because I also see how that rigidity can hinder some writers. But I think, like you said, there can be a sort of balance. Whether that's through leveling or through starting more process and getting more expressive as students gain the core organizational skills they need to write well.
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Sara
2/6/2024 03:59:46 pm
I agree with you that post-covid, many of our students need that direct writing instruction with graphic organizers, etc. I find that many of my students like them, while some are overwhelmed by them. I guess that means they are all just trying to figure out what process works for them! I also see what you see with your honors students. My honors students are afraid to take risks and "be wrong" so we have a lot of work cut out for us to transform their fixed mindsets into growth mindsets.
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LT
2/6/2024 03:40:16 pm
As I mentioned, none of us are immune from process pedagogy. Clark does a solid job of exploring the process of process in neutral ways--she identifies the ways that writing as a process is dynamic and recursive. As a writer, I know this to be true, when she writes about writing as a process of problem solving, I thought back to my own MA--which started in Lit and ended in R&C and to roughly my senior year of college. Those were the very first time as a writer that I personally thrilled to the process of writing through, rather than writing down an idea. It was also the first times I really used a computer (I'm old) to do my writing instead of writing and then typing a draft. I was an iffy typist and if I found mistakes or didn't like a sentence when I finished, I turned it in anyway. But with a little Apple II computer, I was a new writer. Revision became the place where my "real writing" took place. From my own perspective as a teacher of writing, trying to give students a meaningful experience of the recursive, question asking, profound aspects of writing I struggle. Students aren't all me. They don't really want to be great writers with great ideas in my classes (not all of them, but, in First Year Writing, most of them). And this is where Wardle and Kasner are important to me and have so profoundly affected my teaching. That writing is a social act--shaped by the culture it enters in to and, in turn shaping it, has changed how I ask students to produce text. Writing for a teacher is nearly meaningless. Writing with the idea of changing their sliver of ther world is very different. Thus, the products in my classroom have changed substantially. Process was, in many ways, a movement away from rhetoric and an over reliance on the personal. It is that that Why Johnny is critiquing. The personal matters and I don't want to suggest otherwise, but an early movement in the field that Kasner and Wardle are connecting to, which was a reaction to process, is Rhetoric. For me, this is powerful in the classroom--all things can be framed as rhetoric. Grammar and punctuation choices aren't focused on error it is focused on rhetorical power.
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Sara
2/6/2024 03:42:32 pm
Up until college, I followed the pre-writing, writing, and re-writing process that I grew up with (Clark). However, as I got to college and the writing prompts became more demanding and vague, I adapted a new type of process that was more aligned with Wardle and Adler reading. I began to realize that writing itself generated new ideas and that through writing, I wasn’t “discovering ideas”, I was generating them. I started to practice the concept of free-writing in lieu of a structured pre-writing process. I follow that model currently. When I write, I start by getting all my ideas out on paper without careful attention to grammar and mechanics (although the perfectionist English teacher in me often rewrites sentences as I go). Following this initial “word vomit”, I group together similar ideas and try to piece together a coherent thought line.
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Devon
2/6/2024 03:48:15 pm
I also have a similar process of word vomit too!! I tell my students this and they cringe hard. So weird haha. The training wheels is a perfect comparison, Sara. I feel the same way with my lower level students - I'd rather they practice these basics as much as they can.
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Nick Elliott
2/6/2024 03:50:15 pm
Sara, I very much relate to your experiences in teaching students from a "process" based model. I use templates pretty heavily for my CP students because I believe (correctly or not) that they need the basics of structure more than anything else. The fact that many of these students have IEP/504 documents that require "templates or graphic organizers" is also an aspect of the process that needs to be addressed.
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LT
2/6/2024 03:51:20 pm
Yes most definitely give yourself some grace, my friend! Remember that we teach the way we were taught for the most part. You've identified to things here (connects to Devon as well) Process itself has become pretty lock step and not all that different from what process set out to not be in the 1970s and 80s as espoused by folks like Elbow and Murray. And you also identify what makes expressivism really complicated in a classroom--how do you grade expressivism? Later, critcs will talk about how there is a difference between writing and writing for school. Expressivism seems to ignore that, and, in that way, can be seen and has been critiqued for being pretty elitist.
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Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 04:07:33 pm
Sara, I love your analogy to the training wheels. This year, I have been trying to build my students' confidence and independence with their writing. So many of them heavily rely on me to walk them through the process step by step by step and tell them exactly what to do. I want them to learn how to engage in the writing process themselves without as much assistance.
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Nick Elliott
2/6/2024 03:42:58 pm
Lad Tobin's discussion of writing and grading as a process where students are not focusing on what they got "right" or "wrong", but instead as a way to see what they have accomplished with their writing, and where their writing can go from there. I feel like this concept really stuck out to me in regards to my teaching of college or personal essays with my Juniors.
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Cassie Peterson
2/6/2024 03:50:14 pm
I have had the same struggles with my honors students. So much so that at the beginning of the year, they were afraid to turn in anything that they didn't think that they would get a 100 on. Many of my Honors 8th graders expressed that if it wasn't perfect, a zero was better than trying and being wrong. The 8th grade team has been struggling the last 2 years to help students unlearn that mindset. the fear of being incorrect or imperfect is an epidemic.
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Nick Elliott
2/6/2024 03:53:16 pm
One thing I have started telling my students is that their writing in the beginning doesn't need to be "perfect" or even "good", it just needs to exist. I've had varying degrees of success with that framing, but I've seen that fear of imperfection in a lot of different places in the classroom, not just writing. In their reading, many students will just refuse to read because they're "not good at it". It makes me sad.
Kasey P
2/6/2024 03:54:17 pm
I completely feel the same way! My students are so focused on what is considered the "right way" which keeps them from actually exploring the prompts in a unique or different way. Most of my students are so concerned that if they don't do something completely perfectly, they need to start over. My other extreme is that I have a group of other students who feel that if they cannot meet perfection, then they should not even attempt. It can be a challenging crossroads where you want them to approach certain criteria, yet also encourage them to find their own voice and personality within their writing. I find that process can help them with a jumping off point, but it still cannot get them out of their own way when they actually do begin the writing.
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Sara
2/6/2024 03:57:54 pm
I love that you use the phrase "living document" to communicate to your students that their essays are a living and unfinished document. I will definitely use that phrase in my classroom as well!
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Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 04:09:38 pm
I am glad you brought this up because this is a huge issue I see with my students (well, my honors students). They have become obsessed with having a clean, polished, "safe" essay. That is why when I show example essays now, I show them ones that contain the best ideas, not the ones that contain the best grammar/punctuation/etc.
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Kasey P
2/6/2024 03:45:36 pm
When I try to approach writing, I don't just want a process, I need one otherwise I feel like I cannot produce anything worthwhile. As I've written more and more in recent years, I always start with a brainstorm where I try to consider my topic, but then weigh it against my audience, as all writing requires some interaction between writer and audience. From there, I draft, write, and sometimes during the revision process, I throw it all out and rewrite. These strategies made me feel as though I could continue to grow and develop my thoughts in a more constructive way than if I were to just throw my words on a page without thinking.
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LT
2/6/2024 03:57:32 pm
I'm kind of commenting on both yours and Nick's post-and Sara's. Really everyone's. It's probably pretty clear how process is so pervasive--pervasive the way it was originally outlined in the 1970s. And I do agree that having process sort of outlined in a particular and singular way, before or after the pandemic, is necessary for new writers. Because student writers think that being a good writer, as Nick alludes to, is being able to write a perfect, error free paper beginning to end without having to revise--right? Like you start with your first word and end with your last, and that's that. Never look back. So you have to start somewhere. But I wonder a lot about how we help students understand and implement their own writing style. I think that's really hard because writing. for school (or a job) is not really fun, even when you like to do it and like the topic. But what I'm also seeing here is that learning to write takes a long, long time. And those are hard things to accomodate in the classroom.
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Cassie Peterson
2/6/2024 04:04:55 pm
Where you say you need a process, I much prefer to write without one. Each paper is like a new challenge that I get to figure out the rules for. While I am used to the forced process of drafting, I feel very suffocated by it. It feels like it takes all life and adventure out of what I'm doing. As an autistic individual I already have a set of rules in my head that align with how I like to do things (which change depending on the type of paper I am writing or what topic I'm writing about), so when I am forced to follow a set of rules that don't line up exactly with that, I often feel frustrated and disengaged. I think this illustrates just how individualized writing instructions should be to best fit different learners.
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Dawna Vella
2/6/2024 03:45:47 pm
As I read about the process movement, I found myself immediately recognizing its influence on my own writing education and teaching. One concept that was particularly interesting to me was Clark’s use of the terms “rhetorical situation” and “exigence” to help students focus their writing to a specific audience and purpose. I use a similar thought process in my own writing, which I definitely picked up from my early (process-based) writing education. As I outline and draft, I make it a point to repeatedly ask myself why and for whom I am writing something, and I find that this does help me keep my writing focused and precise. I also learned early on that writing is a process with concrete, linear steps (planning, drafting, revising). This framework influenced my own writing process for many years, but I eventually learned that writing is inherently complex and non-linear, so I have moved away from this particular writing routine. I do find this approach to writing useful, in some ways, in my classroom. I try to emphasize for my students that real writers are constantly moving back and forth between the “stages” of writing, but I have found that having a clear, repeatable process can be useful for struggling writers and students facing language-related learning challenges. While I think this concept of distinct stages of writing is useful in teaching basic writing skills, this is also my main critique of the legacy of process pedagogy. I think that many students, whether their writing teachers intend this or not, become dependent on this exact writing process, to the point that when the scaffolds and checkpoints are taken away, a lot of students struggle to recreate an effective writing process on their own. If the fluidity of the writing process were emphasized, I think that students would better understand that writing is different for every individual and that they must explore different approaches in order to determine what works best for them. When students take ownership of a writing process that fits with their own thinking, they are more likely to be able to use this process effectively outside of the classroom setting.
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LT
2/6/2024 03:58:16 pm
Kind of see my above comment--that we teach students to not individualize their skills.
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Kasey P
2/6/2024 04:03:10 pm
I could not agree more with your comments towards the end! I have been guilty of it before and have seen that when writing process is pushed in one particular way, students sometimes lose the ability to actually replicate it. Students want so badly to meet what they think we want and when we push certain aspects of writing, they just are following the steps to an "A". In recent years, I have worked on implementing different brainstorming and planning techniques and allow the students more choice. I focus on the basics of how to approach writing. I'm a believer that when we present students with the different variations of critical thinking skills, they can focus on what works for their own thought-process while also getting the scaffolds and supports that they need!
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Cassie Peterson
2/6/2024 03:46:04 pm
I have certainly recognized practices in my own writing that were discussed in the readings. For example, I have been engaged in rhetorical reading since my AP Lang class in high school, where we read through a text (Huck Finn) a number of times for a quick overview, understanding, then deeper interaction/rhetorical strategies utilized by the author. In my teaching, I have a rhetorical analysis coming up for my 9th graders. They will read Atticus' speech from TKAM for a basic gist. Then they will identify rhetorical devices used in the speech, then finally they will be presented with a writing prompt that will require them to analyze why Atticus uses those particular rhetorical devices. They will also be using a graphic organizer, then do a rough draft, then make edits based on feedback, then turn in a final draft. This is exactly like the methods we read about for tonight.
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LT
2/6/2024 04:00:45 pm
Honestly, do not get me started on some of the silly things we teach writers--don't use I. Have a "life Lesson" for a thesis? What the actual what. Cheesy openers yes. "Since the beginning of time" "Webster's Dictionary defines. . . ." These things have such implications for writing later on that are hard to undo. Because it's taught as a formula and not a process. Maybe that is what I'm trying to get at: process has become a formula and not a process and it does not consider the social construct of how actual writing works in the actual world.
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Dawna
2/6/2024 04:11:43 pm
YES. So this has me thinking that in order to replicate an authentic writing process, we need to develop more authentic writing tasks. But then we have to teach kids how to write an MCAS essay, which they say they should be able to do if they're able to write authentically, but that's objectively not true. Also, can people even identify what authentic writing tasks are? This is something my particular department seems to struggle with (we've done a lot of professional development on project based learning, and a lot of teachers have struggled not only just fitting it into the curriculum time-wise, but struggled to design projects that actually mimic real life writing--even English teachers)
Devon
2/6/2024 04:03:20 pm
Cassie, I resonate with a lot of what you said. I definitely would support a modern version! I think about my current sophomores and how their attention spans can't make it a whole period. If only my school had common planning time to implement this ahh!
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Kasey P
2/6/2024 04:11:25 pm
I feel the exact same way about essay writing class experiences! My students felt bombarded by previous teachers and their negative commentary, something that can seriously dissuade them from writing in the future. Additionally, the lack of consistency can be incredibly frustrating and has to feel like whiplash for students! Every year they feel like their approaches to writing are just to match that year's teacher and their needs. At some point I feel like asking, do schools even care about individual voice? If they do, we would be more focused on allowing students more free-writing and journaling experiences. We could offer opportunities to grow their writing through portfolios over time. Instead, each year we are focusing on re-inventing the wheel and spend tiring weeks at a time just writing.
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Nick Elliott
2/6/2024 04:12:44 pm
Your middle schooler's struggles with voice and persona is something I absolutely see with my high schoolers as well! A thesaurus is their best friend, putting in more "sophisticated" words into their essay without much care for how it can shift the meaning of their words. I think its important (for me anyway) to see that the struggles our students have with writing don't necessarily end at the end of the school year, and that even with amazing teachers, students will still struggle with certain aspects of the process across years. It's a good reminder for me to have a bit of grace with my students, meet them where they are, and do the best I can to support their still growing voices.
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Peyton DiTullio
2/6/2024 04:13:14 pm
You bring up a lot of great points about redundancy and fatigue. I agree that students feel extremely exhausted by the time they have completed the process.
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Dawna
2/6/2024 04:13:41 pm
The sustainability of process is such an issue! I think it probably takes me 3-4 weeks to write an essay with my seventh graders (while simultaneously reading a book, but still, ugh.). And then it's such torture that they never would want to actually do that in their real life writing experiences!
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