Rethinking our relationship to grammar and punctuation: asynchronous post

3/19/2021

English majors and folks who write have a complicated relationship to grammar and punctuation. On the one hand, there is often an expectation on the part of the writer as well as those who know that this person is a writer, of a level of expertise that they will have accumulated--or that they are naturally gifted in the grammar and punctuation department.

At the same time, many folks who write and write a lot and often quite well, actually think they are terrible at grammar and punctuation. I will certainly admit to feeling that way for many years--and still have moments of existential doubt when I load a web page or send out an email to all faculty. And with good reason: one time I sent out an email that. had it's for its and a fellow faculty member emailed the entire faculty with one word: "its".

Which brings me to a larger point: there is a lot of shame around grammar and punctuation rules. And a conflation of other skills with correctness--like spelling, for instance. But folks who write a lot make a kind of peace with the imprecision and sometimes unuseful (made up word) adherence to correctness.

So as we enter into the back half of the semester, it's my hope to shift your relationship to grammar and punctuation--to make shift from fearing it to feeling empowered by it. Because owning your skills in this area really will bring your writing to the next (professional level). To begin, once you've taken and we've scored the editing test I gave you in class today, post your reaction to taking it.

USE THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS AS GUIDES:

How did it make you feel to take it?
Can you locate general categories of "rules" that you seem not to understand?
Were there parts of the test where you felt the test was just wrong?
Were there parts of the test where you felt like you didn't even know what the test was asking you about?
Finally, in your own experience, what is a rule or rules that you just feel like you don't understand?

We'll use this test, your answers, and what I've read of your writing so far to focus in on some work with grammar and punctuation that will build your confidence in using both--to not feel burdened by the fear of error but to feel emboldened to try different constructions and rhetorical moves with grammar and punctuation to do it with.

15 Comments

Michael Wood

3/19/2021 03:46:58 pm

The wasn't much in the way that surprised me after taking this test as I feel like I have taken similar ones before. I felt like I was not being challenged for the most part although there were a few that made me stop and think. One of the main rules that I don't fully understand is where to accurately place a colon. I usually put it when something is directly referenced but now I feel that I am missing something greater. Questions 13 and 20 were the most confusing for me as I found that none of the answers provided were what I would pick. For 13, the dialogue breaks in a really awkward way so while I would put a comma after the first quotation, there was no indication of where I would put a period after the action tag as the next quotation would be the start of a new sentence. The sentence structure was so unusual that I would not even write it that way to begin with. The second question did not make much sense so I was sort of confused as to what it wanted to look like. For 20, I felt that the punctuation was off and that the article should be in quotation marks while "Time Magazine" should stay the same with proper capitalization. None of the answers there seemed to be accurate either. For a rule that I don't understand, I feel as through I should practice more with semicolons as well since I should see when they would be appropriate as opposed to a simple comma when needed.

Kate Bazarsky

3/19/2021 06:45:42 pm

This test did not tell me anything I did not already know. Quite frankly, I know that grammar is not my strong suit. The first few questions were okay, but once I got to the questions with all of the different sentences, my brain shut off. It was hard for me in some cases to figure out which one was incorrect when there was 5 different sentences--I wasn't able to focus on all of them. Some of the questions, I struggled with because I just write differently. I know "creative freedom" isn't a good argument to make when talking about grammar--but people write different ways. Regardless, this test made me realize how important brushing up on grammar is because as a fourth year English major.... I got a lot of questions wrong.

Paige Couture

3/24/2021 05:10:26 pm

Hi Kate,

I love editing, but the weird part is grammar is not my strong suit either. I've always been taught to use commas whenever there is a pause--I'm sure I'm not the only one--however, that is not always the case with some sentences. I'm not sure if this helps you, but I was in the same situation when reading these questions. Some of the questions had spelling errors in them. I just crossed them off. I almost felt like switching from being a mystery writer to literary text, that way I don't have to worry about grammar lol. It's okay if you get a lot of questions wrong because that is the reason why grammar tests exist! It's to help us practice, rather than feeling like we're getting them wrong.

3/25/2021 06:40:58 pm

I’m right there with you. Unfortunately, I had the incorrect expectation that this wouldn’t be so bad. Clearly I need to do some work in this area of writing.

Rebecca Monestime

3/20/2021 12:19:16 pm

I have found my answers vs. the answer key to be completely different from each other. My relationship with grammar has never been the greatest ever since I was in elementary school. it was one of the hardest subjects I've ever learned and to this day it looks like much hasn't changed. Grammar is hard but it the most important thing to learn when it comes to writing. Commas, correct punctuation, etc. are needed to make a piece of writing good and coherent. This test has shown me that I have a lot of work to do when it comes to grammar and using it properly. I want to improve my relationship with grammar, I rI am willing to re-learn grammar so I can use it better in my writing. The test has shown that I do not fare well in grammar and it's also been a long time since I've actually thought and learned grammar. The rules I never understood in grammar is where to correctly put the commas in sentences. Every time I write a sentence and I put a comma, it always feels wrong. The part of the test that felt wrong to be were the options, some of them look the same and I can't decide which one is the right answer. It was confusing to me but I can see why the answers are the way they are.

Matt McGuirk

3/21/2021 08:24:24 am

This test was actually a lot of fun for me because I am a grammar nerd. If I had to pick a rule that I sometimes struggle with, it's the punctuation at the end of a quote. For some reason I go back and forth; I leave a period inside the quotes sometimes but other times I put it outside. I think it's because I've written in so many styles throughout college and they have different rules (i.e., AP style always requires the end punctuation inside the quote). For the most part I understood what the test was asking me. If I didn't, I'd go back and reread each answer and figure it out. No. 32 is probably one of the few that stumped me because I felt like there were multiple wrong answers. I love grammar and punctuation but this test was humbling because it showed me that there are still some things I am getting wrong.

Derek Krysko

3/22/2021 06:24:29 am

For the most part this test was straightforward and easy enough to work through. I think these kind of grammar tests are just annoying in general because it always feels like they are trying to trip you up.
I have actually had to take a few of these quizzes when applying for editorial jobs on Indeed, and they are all just as bothersome. I think they are super frustrating at times because they feel so elementary, but at the same time they cannot be completed quickly because the differences are so minor. If I had to pick one area I disliked the most, I guess it would be when to use an em dash, or when to use a comma to separate a thought within a sentence, but then continue that sentence. I don't think any parts of the test were wrong, because in some sense I guess we just have to bow down to the grammar test and accept that it's a genius and we know nothing. Any section that does the whole "one of these sentences is incorrect" thing is just super obnoxious because it is very difficult to compare them when they all say different things. I personally have always felt like grammar is more about feel rather than being right or wrong. Read a sentence out loud using the punctuation you currently have, and if it sounds right then it should be good.

3/24/2021 05:06:06 pm

Hi Derek,

You make a good point when you said that taking grammar tests are about feeling rather than being right or wrong. I also believe that it is about testing your skills, as in not how it "appears" rather, if it "sounds" accurate. I've taken the grammar test on Indeed before and I know exactly what you're talking about. I've taken one on Fiverr and the questions were just as childish, however, important skills that we need to know how to do. Most of the questions being asked were comma related. Not every sentence is the same. The most important thing as English majors is that we keep practicing.

Maddie Staples

3/24/2021 07:31:27 am

I was a bit frustrated when I looked at the answer key of the quiz and realized how many of the answers I got wrong, because I thought that I had done a lot better. Almost every single one of my wrong answers dealt with the placement of quotes and punctuation, particularly when there is an exclamation point or question mark inside the quote. I knew that that was one of my weak points. A lot of my other mistakes were the result of not reading correctly, and I neglected to catch misspelled words or misplaced commas. There were a few questions, namely 24 and 29, where multiple answers seemed correct, and I have no idea why the answer given is the correct one.
I'm glad to have services like spell check and Grammarly, but it is still important to understand the conventions of language.

3/24/2021 05:00:04 pm

I try to take grammar tests often to keep up with my skills. Those I come across are typically easy. While taking this grammar test, I felt like I had to second guess myself with some of the questions that were being asked. However, I noticed that most of the questions had spelling errors. A part of the test where I felt was wrong was #26. I felt like there could be two correct answers: “One man will collect the tickets and another will search the patrons” and, “Martha worked on the jigsaw puzzle and I will help her”. The second sentence does not really make sense though, because one cannot help another with a jigsaw puzzle if it had already been completed. Another part of the test I thought was wrong was #18. This question was about writing out numbers. I felt like all of the sentences were accurate. A term for when numbers are typed out like this 18 is called Arabic numerals. I’ve done research on why this is and come to find out that when a number starts at the beginning of a sentence, it always needs to be spelled out. An example: “Seventy points are available to earn for the final.” The incorrect way is to write: “70 points are available to earn for the final.” I suppose I just don’t understand this rule, when to write them out in Arabic form or spelling out numbers. I always thought that both ways were correct. I understood most of what the grammar test was asking of me. I noticed that most of the sentences just had spelling errors. With that, I just crossed them out to figure out the right answer. In general, the rules of grammar that I feel like I don’t understand is when it comes to using colon or semicolons. I noticed that I use a lot of commas. I also get confused when it comes to advanced grammar; like this sentence, or this--that use many symbols--since I never know when the right time is to use them.

Lynne Campbell

3/25/2021 01:04:30 pm

It's tests like these that make me think back to elementary and middle school because I had to take a lot of assessments and quizzes like these. I was diagnosed with a learning disability that impacts my visual and spacial processing skills. I am not even sure if that is the right term for it, but my brain can't recognize subtle differences between things. I specifically remember being given different colored blocks and I had to arrange them in a specific pattern to match a picture and every time I tried, I was wrong and I couldn't recognize why. To me the picture and the blocks I rearranged were the same and I couldn't see that it was wrong. This test reminded me of those assessments because it took me longer to recognize the subtle differences between the sentences. There were so many that I thought were completely identical and I had to sit and stare at it for a long time. When I was taking the text, I thought I was doing really well and by the end I was sourly mistaken; just like the block assessment. I think I am better at recognizing my own mistakes within my writing because I run on instinct when it comes to grammar and punctuation. I know that is probably not the correct way to go about writing, especially in a professional setting. This test honestly frustrated me because it showed me how my learning disability effects me even when it comes to something that I want to do as a career.

3/25/2021 06:38:41 pm

This was the worst. Honestly? Headache producing level of stress. I completed 25 questions and realized I could only get an 80 IF I answered the last 25 perfectly. I was already fatigued and frankly used the rest of the test as a lesson instead. My worst offenders were punctuating lists and apostrophes. Same as Kate, my eyes crossed rather than calmly handling five different sentences. The font and older appearance put me right back in elementary school with timed tests and brutal multiple choice options. I thought I had a better handle on grammar and I’m disappointed in myself. :(

Emily Spagna

3/25/2021 09:19:15 pm

This was something relatively difficult for me to take, I didn't even end up finishing the test. I most likely would have handed this back partially blank if it were to really be graded. After the first few, the lines start to run together and the words get jumbled, I couldn't focus on it. And then halfway through the test, the sentences are all different in each number. I didn't know what it wanted anymore. They all started to look correct. I am not someone to pay attention to general grammar "rules", most of the time if it makes it sound weird it's because this is how i talk. Pauses in places to focus people and readers on what I find important. Most of the rules I had been taught in grade school i couldn't even begin to try to write out or explain anymore, I've either never used them, don't like them, or just cant explain it because it's automatic for me. One that i stick to has to do with dialogue, again, can't explain it, but here's an example:
"I'm home," she said pushing through the door, "Did you start dinner yet?"
The commas in that are something i vaguely remember learning about. After being taught the rules for years and then immediately being told "the rules are there for us to break them", I've kind of just throw it all away and just done what I want. Usually that ends up ok, sometimes a little choppy, but the more i read it out loud and make it sound the way I talk, the better off I am.

Marissa Merlino

3/26/2021 07:33:38 am

This test made me self conscious about my grammar skills. I thought this test would be fun in the beginning and was unaware that it could make me question myself so much. There were certain rules that I had never taken the time to think about, such as how to separate the names of cities and their states in a sentence. I particularly found difficulties with where to put colons and whether or not to put a comma before a quotation. The answer to 21 surprised me, since I really thought the correct spelling was "alright" rather than "all right". This made me feel like everything I thought I knew and have been taught is wrong, and now I'm questioning my writing for every paper I've ever turned in during college.

Amanda Guindon

3/26/2021 09:50:06 am

I think taking this quiz was more of an eye-opener than anything. I felt like I was okay with grammar, and I feel like I don’t really give it a second thought at this point in my writing career. And while the majority of this grammar test went okay, some of the questions made me second guess myself and stop and think. I almost feel like it’s harder to judge grammar based on single sentences like this rather than looking at it all in a paragraph.
I think my biggest downfall when it comes to grammar are commas and all the rules that
come along with commas. I feel like it can be more difficult to tell where they should naturally fall in sentences versus where they are meant to be based on the grammar rules. Question 6 where it is talking about both a date and a location felt a little tricky and I wasn’t sure if we needed another comma after the entire date. The questions that involved both commas and quotes that people said also felt more difficult and I feel like that can be something that people mess up on a lot of the time. I know especially when I am reading over my papers or if I am helping another friend with their essays, people seem to use way more commas than what is needed and it ends up making the paper sound more choppy than fluid. Commas seem so simple, but there are all these stupid little rules that come along with them.
I think semicolons are also something that people mess up a lot and they can be more tricky to use in the correct way in essays. Question 7 felt really familiar to me as I had spent a lot of time in high school learning rules of semicolons and some other grammar rules, but the list of places that also have commas is probably one of the only grammar “rules” that I remember and it has stuck with me all this time even though I barely ever use it.
There were a few questions that were asking about the order of the words in the sentences and those questions definitely felt a little weird answering. Sometimes it seemed like the order that the words were in just gave the sentence a different meaning without making it technically wrong like question 24 about the roses. But then there was another question about the order of words in the sentence and it was obvious which answer was right because the flow of the other wordings just didn’t make sense, and it’s weird thinking about those types of things being grammar rules.

Rethinking our relationship to grammar and punctuation: asynchronous post

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