Grammar Lust & Loathing

6/1/2021

Overview: When I'm on a flight I am almost always grading papers. It's just how it is. And when that happens, some neighbor I didn't entirely want to talk to notices and asks me what I teach. And when I say English they invariably say "oh, I better watch my grammar." What I want to say to my fellow traveler is that if they talked less it would probably cut down on any possible grammar errors (I hate talking to people on planes), but I don't. I just smile and say, and I mean it, your grammar is fine. Everyone worries too much about grammar.

This is no more true than it is for folks who teach English, folks who think that they should be absolute experts on dangling modifiers and the like. And, to be clear, I'm not saying you shouldn't be, I'm just saying, more than likely, you are better at grammar and punctuation than you think you are. The deficit thinking that surrounds writing and writing instruction is making you think you are "terrible at grammar."

WHAT TO POST
What I am hoping to talk about today is the relationship of grammar and grammar instruction to writing instruction. For this discussion board post, please include your summary and analysis of the Constance Weaver reading you had for homework. Then please answer the following two questions: What would CW say about the grammar test you just took? About how you felt taking that grammar test? Secondly, what is a "rule" that you always struggle with or simply don't understand?

9 Comments

Alexis Medeiros

6/1/2021 12:06:12 pm

Reading Journal #1 Chapters 1-3 of Writing Beside Them by Penny Kittle
Penny Kittle’s book is about teaching writing but focusing on the “gritty particulars of teaching adolescents”(Kittle 20). She does not focus on the end result but throughout the first three chapters Penny has a clear focus on the journey to the end result. The book itself contains different genres, units and mini lessons. Penny makes a clear focus on the teacher, she believes that in order to have better writers it begins with the person who is teaching them to write. Students can only write as well as they have been taught. Researchers found that nothing effects the students learning in the classroom as much as the teacher. Teachers are the greatest impact within the classroom. Penny states, “Teachers are more powerful than parent pressure, any textbook, workbook, curricula, or central office directive” (Kittle 3). Boldly, Kittle states, “Teachers make the difference, not tests” (Kittle 3).
The main point of Kittle’s introduction is clear, it is not about the end result but it’s about the process of getting to the result. Often times teachers focus on the end result because of the various pressures they have forced unto them such teaching all of the standards and meeting all of the scores that they get lost in despair and neglect the process of getting through all the standards and the desired test scores. Since teachers are forced to teach a certain way they aren’t allowed to be as creative as they want to be. Students are then forced to do writing that they don’t want to do and loose interest because just like their teachers they aren’t allowed to be creative either. Kittle had a student who reelected back on her class. The student loved the assignment because they were allowed to defend their own opinion rather than regurgitate another boring prompt. This experience allowed the student to get their joy of reading back. The student was allowed to express themselves instead of being forced to write about something that they didn’t want to. Teachers should allow students to defend their own opinions as they will connect and write better.
In the second chapter of the book, Kittle reflects on her May Day writing experience with her class. She had the students write about flower memories. Kittle wrote beside her students and at the end she shared what she wrote with the students, she wrote about her husband giving her a flower at the age of sixteen when she was a nervous cheerleader standing by his locker. She said her students were amazed that she was talking to them like human being. Students want teachers to treat them like they are human beings and not just like they are “just students”. Students are more than just students they are people with lives too. Kittle states that this assignment was a failure because she should have taken it to another step. This May Day writing assignment may have been a failure in her eyes but it stuck with one of her students. One of her students came back to her asking for this writing assignment. Kittle believes that teachers should write beside their students. Students only know what they are taught so if they are not taught something how can they know what the teacher is looking for. Kittle believes that modeling writing demonstrates to students exactly what the teacher is looking for. Kittle gained a new perspective which was, “I now believe you really can’t teach writing well unless you write yourself” (Kittle 7). Kittle states, “We don’t learn many things well by just following directions” (Kittle 7-8). She believed that teachers can’t teach something that they first haven’t taught themselves to do. Kittle believed that she was a bad writer but when she adopted her new attitude she believed because she wrote the day before she could teach it the next day her outlook changed. You can’t do something that you first don’t try and put the effort in yourself. Once she put herself in her students shoes she found great success. By putting the skills into practice along side your students you are able to meet them where they are at.
In chapter three, Kittle states that she worked at a comprehensive public school in New Hampshire that had the highest drop out rate in the state. Some students were only taking the writing course because it was a required requirement. Kittle believes that every student needs to be challenged, she states, “I believe every student needs challenge and too many of our lower level courses are holding cells for the behaviors and least academically rigorous experience” (Kittle 12). Often times lower courses don’t challenge students which only unmotivated them even more. From this Kittle introduces her use in scaffolding writing skills. Again, Kittle reiterates that the focus of writing is not on the end result

Gabriel El Khoury

6/1/2021 12:09:47 pm

In the first three chapters of Constance Weaver’s Grammar to Enrich & Enhance Writing, Weaver borrows from her firsthand experience as a teacher and researcher in order to put forward her unique theory of teaching designed specifically for “junior high and high school level” (xi) students. The first chapter serves primarily to define key terms, outline the history of grammar, and prepare the reader for material soon to be covered in chapter two: “reasons commonly offered today for teaching grammar as a formal discipline” (6). Compromising what can only be described as grammar apologetics, chapter two provides the complex reasoning behind education’s focus on grammar. Citing various studies, Weaver explains that the teaching of grammar, while a com monplace component of education and in theory designed to help students avoid or correct errors (13), is hardly backed up by data. Despite data proving that traditional approaches to the acquisition of grammar are deeply flawed, teachers continue to teach it to their students. Weaver provides a plethora of reasons as to why teachers continue to teach grammar despite a bevy of evidence “demonstrating its lack of practical value” (23): teachers are unaware of the mounting evidence proving the contrary, they assume teaching grammar improves reading and writing, they capitulate “to pressure from parents and other community members” (25), etc. Lastly, chapter three. In chapter three, Constance Weaver, citing Noam Chomsky’s linguistic research, makes known the difference between surface structure and deep structure (30). Children somehow manage to acquire many of the rules of English without being explicitly taught them. “Language acquisition is a subconscious process” (49), Weaver adds.
What is particularly striking to me is how much of language is shrouded in mystery.
Constance Weaver would undoubtedly dislike the assigned grammar test in class today. No only does she rag on grammar quizzes in general throughout Grammar to Enrich and Enhance Writing, she backs up her claims with various studies.

Aliyah Pires

6/1/2021 12:14:56 pm

Grammar can be described in four ways depending on what aspects teachers are prioritizing. These four major senses are grammar as a description of syntactic structure, as prescriptions for how to use structures and words, as rhetorically effective use of syntactic structures and as the foundational command of sentence structure that enables us to comprehend and produce language. From the start teaching grammar was used for disciplining and training the mind. Now in the 20th century we see a shift from the emphasis on grammar as mental discipline to a shift toward more emphasis on grammar as a means of improving writing and reading. Studying grammar has a built-in assumption that it will improve reading and writing or at least the ability to edit written work and do better on standardized tests however studies have shown that studying grammar does not improve these things as much as expected. Teachers have been told that they cannot teach grammar in a creative way as it must be done according to standards for students to full grasp the concepts. This leaves many students disengaged from learning grammar which results in them not learning as well as they could be. Along with learning grammar comes the idea that we as students will begin to learn the language more. However, many of us have studied the language but few have acquired genuine competence in the language through that process. We can understand how the language works without having any ability to use it correctly when writing or even speaking. In these three chapters it is stated that the teacher teaching students how to write is what makes the difference, not the test they take. I feel like Weaver would believe this grammar test not to be helpful as it is simply not an effective way of going about teaching grammar. She believes that being taught grammar by a teacher who makes it interactive would help many students become efficient at it therefore giving student a multiple-choice assessment about grammar would only discourage students and not help them fully understand the meaning behind grammar principles.

Emma Healy

6/1/2021 12:15:49 pm

The first chapter looks at the multiple meanings of “grammar” that involve syntax, the rules of language, and sentence style. A lot of teachers however miss the key component of grammar that connects to how we speak and understand language. A main focus is that we don’t need to necessarily teach grammar because it is innately part of how we acquire the language in our earliest years. Grammar books became more of a focus in the 18th century which heavily reflected the Latin structure. The nineteenth century transitioned from memorizing grammar rules to actually applying them using numerous activities and using it for better student writing today. This second chapter discusses the reasons for teaching grammar and how they have altered throughout the centuries. \The Encyclopedia of Educational Research in 1960 indicated that teaching grammar didn’t align to writing correct English and three years later, Research in Written Composition concluded that teaching grammar could have negative effects on writing. In the 1950’s and 1960’s, there was an idea to teach more structural linguistics than formal grammar, but this was eventually dismissed. In 1966, Bateman and Zidonis were some of the first researchers to study the transformational grammar effects on students. Researchers such as John Mellon and Frank O’Hare also studied transformational grammar. The three most well-known studies done on grammar consist of Macauley in Scotland (1947), Elley, Barham, Lamb, and Wyllie (1976), and Finlay McQuade (1980). All three studies showed the lack of value of teaching grammar, but we still continue to do so today. The third chapter highlighted how grammatical competence is gained both in a native language and in nonnative languages. Written language is not the focus, while oral language is. Noam Chomsky, a linguist, thoroughly studied the concept of a native speakers’ language competence. He also studied deep structure (meaning) versus surface structure (sequence of words). Children acquire grammatical structures before even entering school. Children learn these tools not by direct instruction, but through their environment. Forming utterances with two words is how children demonstrate they are learning grammar. This then transitions to longer and more complex sentences with meaning. Most younger readers show signs of grammar awareness through miscues or mistakes. Stephen Krashen’s model of second language acquisition is very crucial to this study. The CUNY experiment further emphasized fluency followed by clarity. Constance Weaver’s Grammar to Enrich and Enhance Writing's first three chapters emphasize what grammar is and what it means, how grammar teaching has drastically changed throughout the years, why it is taught, and how to acquire grammatical competence.
I think Constance Weaver would not appreciate the grammar test we just took. In Chapter 1, she discussed how in the recent decades, there has been a transition from just “memorizing” grammar and grammar rules to actually applying them in student writing. Even though this test didn’t necessarily count towards a grade, I did still feel the pressure of taking a test and choosing the correct answer. After our grammar discussion I have more of an understanding using a colon. Prior to our discussion, I thought it was just used for lists.

Elizabeth Cheesman

6/1/2021 12:18:14 pm

Educators must remember the history of grammar to inform their teaching. In the second century, Greece focused on teaching grammar after Aristotle showed that grammar is “a means of understanding language.” Grammar is best taught systematically and was considered the “foundation of all knowledge” as well as a form of discipline to the mind. In the 19th century, grammar was seen as the key to improving writing. Current research suggests that there is not sufficient support for linking grammar skills to discipline and high academic achievement. Some people believe that grammar does not need to be taught since children acquire language through dialogue. Leonard Bloom focuses on how language has been spoken instead of the rules of writing through. Structural linguistics has proven to be more successful in enhancing language development instead of enforcing the correct and incorrect rules. For instance, a study on Kindergarten students showed that the more time children participated in oral conversations and listening to the teacher, the easier it was for students to hear and pick up acceptable academic language to transform in their writing.

Weaver makes a compelling argument that structural linguistics may have a more positive impact on children’s ability to write. I think Weaver would be upset with the grammar test because she does not believe grammar instruction has a positive impact on students. Weaver would not say that taking a test would increase IQ and produce higher standardized test scores. Research did not support this assumption. Weaver would say that actively working with students to look at errors and talking about what students noticed has a higher chance to improve students’ writing. I would like to see more evidence on how oral language helps writing and if this is truly consistent with all grade levels.

Sarah Egan

6/1/2021 12:19:05 pm

Though teachers need to know grammar in order to help their students, students need to be guided in learning and applying grammar as they work on their skills with writing. Teaching grammar used to be about training the mind and teaching words usage that were considered correct or socially prestigious. Grammar used to be about mental discipline, but now it is taught to improve writing. Grammar is so important to teach because it demonstrates how language is a huge achievement that deserves to be studied. There were researchers who tried to prove the fact that grammar has no benefits. Maccauley's study suggested that despite years of studying grammar, students cannot identify the most basic parts of speech as they work in a sentence. According to his research, even with much practice in elementary grades, it still is not well learned.

Elley’s study concluded that formal grammar instruction does not contribute anything to the development of reading and writing skills. It showed no benefits for secondary students.

McQuade’s study discovered that and editorial skills class made no difference in understanding grammar.

All in all, these three studies proved that there is little benefit to teaching grammar no matter the type of it. Teachers continue to teach grammar because they may assume that grammar improves reading and writing since they are unaware of the research that has been done. They may believe that the research is false or they may have an interest in it. The author suggests ways to avoid teaching grammar by guiding students through their own interpretation of it. They should allow students to investigate challenging texts and be more aware of social interaction with others. As we learn English, we are unconsciously learning the rules of grammar. Children first begin to learn grammar when they put two words together to form sentences. Even though we may struggle to explain the rules of grammar and the patterns that it has, if we know how to read, speak, and write; then we unconsciously know the grammar of our native language.

Weaver would believe that there is no use to taking the grammar test that we just took; it does not prove the kind of writers that we really are. Taking the grammar test, I felt rushed and felt like I was choosing an answer that I felt most comfortable with at the time. If I had been given more time, I could have probably made less mistakes. But I also could have been given more time to overthink my answers. Overall, Weaver believes that grammar tests cannot highlight a student’s strengths and weaknesses. I also believe this.

Lauren Wrigley

6/1/2021 12:19:30 pm

Constance Weaver’s Grammar to Enrich and Enhance Writing explores the teaching of grammar by highlighting research and theories that suggest efficient approaches for grammar instruction. She introduces her book by defining grammar and reviewing the historical perspective of instruction within this discipline. According to her findings, grammar involves the following: a description of the syntactic structure, a set of rules for how to use structures and words, the rhetorically effective use of syntactic structure, and the functional command of sentence structure that enables the comprehension and production of language. Historically, the instruction of grammar first appeared during the Greek age of Aristotle and Stoics as a form of mental discipline; However, by the late 19th century, grammar shifted to a means of improving writing. Weaver demonstrates this shift to introduce a concern for the effective ways in which grammar can be taught, placing heavy emphasis on the notion that grammar is learned through language acquisition.
The second chapter focuses on the debate on whether teaching grammar is effective. Studies from the mid 20th century suggested that traditional grammar instruction, teaching grammar systemically and as an isolated subject, had failed to be useful in many aspects, including reading and writing skills. In addition, Weaver also provides reasons as to why these pedagogical practices are still carried out, specifically highlighting the idea that teachers have a misconception about how grammar can be learned and applied and what their students are capable of. She suggests that grammar should be taught within reading and writing instruction, and not as a separate subject. Rather than direct instruction, grammar should be taught along with language acquisition-- actively throughout reading and writing. She also places emphasis on teaching with a positive perspective, focusing less on rules and ‘correctness.
I think Weaver would have a negative view of the grammar test we took in class. This test evaluated us on our ability to identify correct grammar usage but not our ability to write effectively using proper grammar. The test also causes stress and can be confusing, increasing the likelihood of students scoring poorly, and again, providing inaccurate evaluation. Essentially, Weaver would probably find this test irrelevant in regards to evaluating students’ writing skills.
One ‘rule’ that I always struggle with is probably spelling because I heavily rely on spellcheck.

David Golden

6/1/2021 12:20:51 pm

Constance Weaver's philosophy is one that grammar in our schooling system is quite flawed. Her concern was the widespread misuse of grammar teaching in our schooling system. She suggested that teachers need to know key aspects of grammar themselves in order to be proficient writers. Students themselves have to be motivated in order to learn properly. Weaver suggested that students should be placed in an environment that helps students flourish and one that promotes these habits. Weaver's solution to this problem was having teachers offer more writing assignments instead of grammar tests. She questioned their very use and suggested that they were quite useless. Weaver mentioned linguistic research from Noam Chomsky. Chomsky suggested that children learn and acquire language skills by the process of speaking and writing consistently. If Weaver was given a grammar test similar to the one we had just taken I have no doubt in my mind that she would throw it out. She believed that they were unmotivating and completely unnecessary. I agree with her as well, I struggle with my commas and tend to produce long sentences. The more I write the better I get. I dislike taking standardized tests immensely.

Tenneh. S

6/1/2021 08:57:42 pm

I believed that the school system is pretty much quite because of his concern about the grammar teaching in our school system. I think teachers need to know the keys to aspect grammar in order to be more proficient writer. Students need to be motivated in order to learn properly. Also students should be placed in an environment that helps students with flourish and one them habits.
Weaver's solution for this problem is that giving the teachers an offer more writing assignment instead of grammar tests or anything. Weaver also mentioned about linguistic research from Noam Chomsky. I also struggle with my commas and tend to produce long sentences. I also believed that the more I write the better I get. I HATE taking standardized tests immensely., I feel it's stupid and wasted of time.

Grammar Lust & Loathing

Leave a Reply.

Torda's

Summer

ENGL 301

Discussion

Board

Archives

Categories

Grammar Lust & Loathing

Leave a Reply.

Torda'sSummer ENGL 301 Discussion ​Board

Archives

Categories

Torda's

Summer

ENGL 301

Discussion

Board