Week Three, Post One: Finally talking about Lives on The Boundary

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Week Three, Post One: Finally talking about Lives on The Boundary

6/8/2020

Overview
Hopefully, you have found time to read Lives on the Boundary. If you have not located your own copy yet, remember, the entirety of the text is available for you for a limited time on our syllabus page.

Lives on the Boundary is not a new story. Published in 1980, it is a unique scholarly text that combines memoir, statistical data on economically and racially diverse populations of students and how successful (or not successful they are) in the US education system, and scholarship on how students actually learn. I urge you, as you read, to pay attention to all three ways this writer, Mike Rose, a respected scholar in the field of Rhetoric and Composition, who has devoted his entire career to supporting all learners in all settings, makes his argument.

Think, too, about where you see connections to other texts in our class--namely, "Why Johnny Can't. . ." (notice that LOTB was published about five years after the "Why Johnny Can't" article appeared. This means that there was a certain sense of what was happening in education at that time that people felt the need to respond to. Can you identify what that sense was? And what sorts of answers where people giving to the questions being asked at that time?

Finally, what resonated with you on a personal level--either as a student or as someone who is going to be a teacher?

Your Initial Post
Finally, post about your top 5 to 7 takeaways from this text. What is Rose telling us about students? about learning? About good practice in the classroom? What is he telling us about the role of good assignments, particularly good reading/writing assignments? In what ways does this text, now nearly 40 years old, still resonate?

Your Response
After reading the posts your colleagues make, read the chapter from Victor Villanueva's Bootstraps available for download on the syllabus. Consider in what ways Villanueva's story is different from as well as similar to Rose's. Then respond to your classmates by adding, subtracting, qualifying our top takeaways from both of these readings.

28 Comments

Lydia Theriault

6/9/2020 07:09:45 am

Some of the major points I thought was important:

• Underpreparation (199-200)
• Educators and their inability to properly help students with their
literary struggles (195-196)
• Effects of background and schooling (177)
• Meeting the right people to show you your true literary
greatness or power (chapter 2)
• That anybody can learn (veterans chapter)
• University politics and funding and curriculum development
(chapter 7)
• SATs and other tests and problems (199)
Because Mike Rose came from a poor background and immigrant parents, I think these issues always stuck with him. The surroundings in which he grew up in contained many different races, cultures, ethnicities – people. Even growing up, he didn’t have quite the highest aspirations for himself, that his tutors, teachers and other educators saw in him something he did not recognize in himself, he was lucky. He was also very talented, but talent only takes a person part way there, unfortunately, he worked very hard too. Rose is proclaiming very loudly in his book, that every student can be taught, and that far too often and liberally, these individuals are being dismissed too quickly and not given another chance. I think Rose sees in himself so many of the students that he’s worked with, from the elementary school kids at El Monte, to the veterans at night school, to the freshmen college students at UCLA, that he has a soft spot for them all, but more importantly, he cares for education!
As far as good reading/writing assignments, I think Rose is saying that a lot of times, students are able summarize complicated text, and so they do that and hand it in as a paper. What good assignments need to do is underline the importance of not only being able to comprehend the text, but to also be able to analyze, synthesize, maybe understand certain allusions or being able to paraphrase. Good Assignments must provide students adequate and sufficient practice in doing all of these things.
As I was reading this book, I had to remind myself a few times that this book was written over 30 years ago! But then again, 30 years was not that long ago. Much of what Mike Rose was saying in regards to education in general made a lot of sense to me, especially the effects on background and schooling, underpreparation, and assessment testing. I think part of why these problems still are relevant today is because they are such difficult issues requiring more than any single solution.

brianna walsh

6/9/2020 08:39:20 am

Hi Lydia!
I feel like we both touched upon many of the same concepts. I agree that it does focus on educator’s inability to properly help their students with literacy. I feel like that is a huge problem and that educators need to have patience with their students, but I also understand how it is probably hard trying to run a classroom and support the needs of all students. Mike Rose shows that all students are capable of learning like you said. I think a good example of that was when he was in the teachers corp and helped students by starting them off with writing how the pictures made them feel. I think that you really explained well what Mike Rose thought of a good assignment was which was to be able to comprehend the text and to analyze it. I like how you brought up the SAT scores as well because it is a problem also referenced from “Why Johnny Can’t” and also doesn’t accurately prove what students can really do and narrows in on the curriculum. SATs can be a huge problem for students who want to get into a state college but did poorly on the SATs. I think that Mike Rose working with a lot of students varying in ages showed how much he wanted people to succeed.

brianna walsh

6/9/2020 07:30:48 am

In “Lives on the Boundary” one of my big takeaways was the impact labels have on a student. An example of this is with the student named Herold and how he was passed around by different teachers, doctors, and other people just saying how he had different issues and seemed to give up on him in a way. Herold also originally seemed like he gave up until Mike came along and helped him and showed him that he believed in him. Mike Rose did the bare minimum and proved that these students have a potential and are able to read, write, and improve those skills. The students who are labelled as “slow learners” or even “illiterate” are made to feel dumb so they will give up and fulfill that role. When I was diagnosed with executive functioning disorder, dyslexia, slow processing- I felt so stupid. Once I was in a special education school, they talked to us as if they had to set the bar really low, almost like the Vocational Ed that Mike talked about. My point is, students feed off of the energy that teachers give them and need to be lifted up and not broken down. Another takeaway is that teachers NEED to be patient with the students and not jump so quick to label. As a student there was so many times I just wanted to give up because I wasn’t getting the help I needed, or people would just say “she’s just a little slow” and laugh. Mike Rose was patient with these students and gave them time to show what they could really do. I think another takeaway is some teacher’s inability to teach all students. Mike Rose also showed me that we don’t know what it is like for the students at home or where they come from and to keep that in mind. I feel like he also reinforced the idea of being a culturally responsive teacher and that everyone comes from different backgrounds. Rose also showed the importance of incorporating things that the students like into the lessons or even finding out what students like and what makes them tick. An example was when Herold was withdrawn and then he saw the football in Mike’s car and lit up. He then opened up and felt like he was able to trust Mike. I feel like with assignments it is important to make sure that the students understand fully and to help them if they need help.
Rose was seeing where the students were at by giving them pictures and telling them to write how they feel. This novel also shows the strong influence that a good teacher has on a student. Mike Rose was a great teacher, but he got to where he was with guidance from his teachers who inspired him. Mike Rose referenced his teachers throughout the novel. This reminds me of the Zone of Proximal Development where students can achieve a lot with guidance and that they need guidance to master skills. I feel like he also showed how important teachers are, how much of a responsibility we have, and how much power we have to make a difference in a student’s life. Mike Rose showed that anyone has the capacity to learn. Mike Rose also showed the flaws in state-based tests and how they are set up to fail some students and don’t measure what they exactly know. For an example, if a student fails or does very poorly on these exams, they will just look at themselves as failures. These standardize tests have a very narrowed curriculum and can be unfair for people who come from different cultures, are ELLs, or even have a low socioeconomic status. In “Why Johnny Can’t…” they also discussed the decline of testing scores and the statistics of the decline of reading, SAT scores, and verbal skills. I think Mike Rose is trying to say that this is not a good way to judge whether someone is literate or not and isn’t even a good way of measuring someone’s skills. Mike saw the decline in testing scores as well and tried to help students.
In “Maybe a Colony: And Still Another Critique of the Comp Community,” Victor Villanueva also argues for multiculturalism and feels that it is also unfair that “minorities” and how it is not diverse with the literature and language. He focuses on the need for multicultural history and literature in the classroom which seems similar to Culturally Responsive Teaching. He believes that as long as we follow the assimilationist model that we would negatively impact the students of color. Villanueva describes cultural assimilation as “flattening” and essentially means that we are not mixing multiple cultures into teaching. I believe that it relates to Mike Rose’s “Lives on the Boundary,” because Rose believed that all students had the capacity to learn and talked about the unfairness of the state-based tests like the SATs. I also think that since he grew up in a low-income home, he also did not think of himself that highly at first and dealt with a lot of losses. I do not think the curriculum failed him, but I do know he saw the fla

Lydia Theriault

6/9/2020 08:10:36 am

Hi Bri!

I thought your post was very articulate. It was easy to understand all the points you were making. Many of them were like mine!

I will admit, I am the first to judge someone who does not speak properly or write well, and may label illiterate or whatever. Even if it was a passing thought, its still wrong and I know to take step back and consider that, maybe their career in education was sub-par and that they weren't given many chances. That though, the way they speak or write may not be grammatically correct but that is what they are used to, and to do it any other way is to risk being wrong and being ridiculed. I loved in the essay by Victor Villanueva how he was talking about being Puerto RIcan but not speaking Spanish as fluently as he should, or as he would like. The language spoken in American is English, but many times people don't walk around speaking properly either. The cliche that America is a melting pot is true, there are so many races and different cultures trying constantly butting heads and trying to compete against each other that there is no wonder we have such a problem. It is a fact that we all need to get past, multiculturalism is not a problem, in fact I think it will ascend human evolution. Being accepting, being educated, knowing that every individual is different from each other (even aside from race, cuture, or discourse communities) is paramount.

Lindsay Vo

6/9/2020 03:25:25 pm

Hi Bri,
It was very interesting to read your thoughts about this book. Likewise, the labels that are placed on students is an aspect that resonated with me too. I am so sorry to hear about your story, and I want you to know that you are a very intelligent person. After reading Villaneuva's article, I can see a very big topic these texts have in common, and that's putting a label on people. In the article, Villanueva explains how he tries to learn Spanish, but isn't reaching the goals that he wants to.

Lindsay Vo

6/9/2020 03:27:04 pm

Therefore he feels like a label is put on him, especially because the is Puerto Rican.

Lindsay Vo

6/9/2020 03:51:07 pm

Along with this idea of being judged, Villaneuva talks about racism in this country, which is sadly rising. Unlike Lives on the Boundary, Villaneuva discusses this topic because it needs to be addressed. He says, "I want us to consider the possibility that traditional ways of teaching literacy have not only forced particular languages and dialects upon America's people of color, but have forced particular ways with the language--rhetorical patterns--patterns that help to maintain American racial, ethnic, and cultural stratisfaction, as well as gender and class." Overall, I think you did an amazing job, and it's very interesting to see the similarities and differences between the two texts.

Lindsay Vo

6/9/2020 03:18:44 pm

"Lives on the Boundary" by Mike Rose reminds me a lot of the "Why Johnny Can't" articles. In "Why Johnny Can't Write," we can see why students aren't prepared for college: because teachers didn't teach them how to write meaningful essays; they gave up. The same can be said here in "Lives on the Boundary." In Chapter 2, Rose was accidentally placed in the vocational track, which a lot of teachers saw as a dead end. Rose says, "We had no sense that Business, Math, typing, and English-Level D were dead ends. The current spate of reports on the schools criticizes parents for not involving themselves in the education of their children. In other words, because Rose "scored low" on his test (which in reality, he didn't, the tests just got messed up), he was placed in the vocational track, and instead of teaching him how to comprehend ideas, they just gave up on him. As I was reading this book, 6 aspects stuck out to me the most:
1. How labels can affect student progress
2. The connection between Mrs. Naumann and her students
3. The relationship between Rose and Mr. MacFarland
4. Rose's perception of school before Mr. MacFarland entered his life
5. The use of visual imagery and what it tells us
6. The fear of not being good enough.
When I was in high school, I was in a lot of level 2 classes because math and science was just not my thing. As a result, I was labelled as being dumb. In "Lives on the Boundary," a lot of students also felt this way. In chapter 5, Rose was playing basketball with 4th grade student and when he asked him about school work, he said, "I used to be in the dumb math group, but then my teacher found out it was too easy for me. So now I'm with the smart kids" (91). Rose goes on to say, "The groups, of course, had various nondescript names to hide from the children the truth that they divined immediately" (91). So, just like this student, I felt ashamed because according to teachers, I was in the "dumb" math group. This cruel effect of labeling students can also be seen in Mark's case. According to Mrs. Naumann, "at his previous school, his entrance IQ tests had yielded a score of 62. Retarded. He had a slight lisp that used to be more pronounced. The kids in the other school used to tease him about it, so he stopped talking" (98). This absolutely breaks my heart, because no child should be bullied, especially to the point where they stop talking. The next point I want to address is the connection Mrs. Naumann has with her students. When Rose is describing her, he says, "They would ask her, for I suppose they sensed she cared. She looked at them when they spoke and always had her and on their shoulders" (93). Her kindness and consideration really spoke to me on a personal level, because I want to be just like her someday. We've all had that one teacher who made us feel welcomed and safe, and I want to be that teacher for my students. While we're on the subject of great teachers such as Mrs. Naumann, I also want to talk about the relationship between Rose and Mr. MacFarland. When Jack MacFarland is introduced, Rose says, "Jack MacFarland had saved me at one juncture: caught my fancy and revitalized my mind. What I felt now was something further, some tentative recognition that an engagement with ideas could foster competence and lead me out into the world" (47). Then in chapter 5, he says, "My first enthusiasm about writing came because I wanted a teacher to like me" (102). This relationship between teacher and student is beautiful to say the least, and as I said before, we've all had this connection with at least one teacher. I also think it was interesting to see Rose's perception towards school before MacFarland walked into his life. In chapter 2, he says, "All the hours in class tend to blend into one long, vague stretch of time" (18). Then he says, "I'd sit there watching a teacher draw her long horizontal line and her short, oblique lines and break up sentences and put adjectives here and adverbs there, and just not get it, couldn't see the reason for it, turned off to it" (19). In other words, because Rose didn't understand the lesson, he wasn't interested, and therefore, wasn't motivated to learn. Throughout this book, I also noticed several examples of figurative language, which really makes the reader picture the scene. For example, when Rose is in East LA, he describes the smells and the types of buildings he sees. He says, "Above the market was a row of small apartments. Some of the windows were cracked and held in place with masking tape that criss-crossed the glass. Others were smooth. And still others were decorated with lace curtains, tied carefully back" (86). From this description, we can tell that the neighborhood he is in is poor, at least to some degree. While some apartments have literal cracks in their windows, others are decorated nicely. This isn't the only instance of visual imagery that I've seen: in the first chapter, Rose describes UCLA campus life. He says, "Fi

Kaylee Tavares

6/9/2020 04:38:29 pm

Hi Lindsay, I think your point about labeling students is very important. Firstly, I can definitely relate to the idea that lower level classes in high school were correlated with the "dumb" kids. The anxiety of feeling as though your friends were brighter than you or that you would be labeled a certain way by peers was so real! I think this relates to the work by Villaneuva because she also speaks about labeling. I think her perspective shows the affect labeling can have on students simply due to their culture, home language, or ethnicity. Thus, regardless of a students' intelligence or grades, they can be labeled as "dumb" or "a lost cause" by educators.It is so important that we develop culturally responsive classrooms and ensure we do not act upon implicit bias.

alexa parham

6/10/2020 07:49:13 pm

hi,
I think you made a lot of valid points and we definitely overlapped points! Which made me want to respond to you because I just realized we even have one of the same quotes: "My first enthusiasm about writing came because I wanted a teacher to like me" (102).
This quote really stuck out to me because it is something I have always personally struggled with as a student. I was put down so many times that I ended up wanting someone to believe in me or even tell me my work was good. Rose talks about that struggle of approval or praise within his book and once you get that one teacher who helps you and believes in you, the relationship is "beautiful" as you said above in your response. I just think this is the most important aspect to teaching - being there for your students. Understanding what your students need to succeed is so important and in the end helps them become a great learner. It helps them succeed in what they want to do. I would have never seen myself as an english major, but with that support, I learned to love it.

Kaylee Tavares

6/9/2020 04:32:13 pm

Takeaways: effect of labels on students/teachers, standardized testing’s validity/lack thereof, effect of having a good connection between teachers and students, cultural responsiveness, analyzing work is much different than summarizing and its connection to literacy

Since taking an EDHM course last semester about teaching students who are emerging multilingual individuals, my perspective on literacy has changed dramatically. Prior to that course, I think some perhaps could have considered me to be a “snob” when it comes to language. For example, I was definitely someone who mentally corrects sentence structure when speaking to someone. However, that course truly opened my eyes to the connection between culture and the use of the English language. Though certain slang terms may not be “correct,” they are a part of a person’s home life and culture, and thus should not be shamed. It also made me realize that I will come into contact with students with varied exposure to English, and that it will be my responsibility to support their learning without erasing their home language. Due to this new perspective, I think I also had a different reaction to this book than I would have a few months ago. It is evident that Rose is calling for more responsive classrooms that account for the large amount of diversity in every class. Differentiation is such a large focus in the education classes I have taken, I have to assume that this was not the case when the novel was written.
One thing that I found particularly interesting about this novel was the section about testing. I think anyone that has been exposed to the standardized tests in this country can agree that there is room for improvement. However, due to my background, I had never considered that the tests may not be accessible for everyone, not only because of academic reasons but also because of cultural differences not being addressed. I find it ironic that teachers spend so much time differentiating lessons in order to better accommodate all students, while standardized tests attempt to assess all students the same way. Even for an assessment at the end of a unit, teachers are encouraged to offer students multiple ways to show their understanding (essay, oral speech, project, etc). Thus, it seems ridiculous that such overarching assessments are not differentiated. It is not at all shocking that the statistics that result from these exams are not actually representative of the student body.

Ali Nolan

6/10/2020 09:41:52 am

Hello Kaylee,

One of the things you touch on in your post is standardized tests. There is so much room for improvement with them and they are flawed beyond belief. While I can understand their importance to some regard, I also feel as though they are rigged against the student. Common Core taught students to the 'test', and the biggest problem with that is students defaulted more-or-less to memorizing things instead of engaging with concepts and learning on a more complex level. You state; "...teachers spend so much time differentiating lessons in order to better accommodate all students, while standardized tests attempt to assess all students the same way". You are so right! Teachers spend copious amounts of time making sure lesson plans are made for individuals and encompass all students regardless of disability or background. Standardized tests assume that everyone is equal and it refers back to the whole idea of "you can't tell a fish to climb a tree". You could be the greatest writer in the world but when faced with a standardized test be challenged. And then that's it... if you don't ace the test you're a statistic.

Hannah Dziadyk

6/10/2020 01:07:07 pm

Hi Kaylee,
I feel like a few of the takeaways you metioned with the standarized testing validity or lack of is a subject that is often debated about and has been talked about a lot. This is coming from someone who testing is not a strong suit and if I wasn't judged I feel I was put in the lower classes just because I didn't get a high score on one test but got A's in my classes. Another takeaway that jumped out at me was student/teacher connection, this can be very powerful. Teachers are the people that teach us the basics but also can help students find what their talents are and their passions, by helping them explore their mind and also their curiousitys for the subjects. This bond can help a student that may be struggling in school and turn school from a negative to a positive learning environment.

Ali Nolan

6/10/2020 09:36:39 am

One thing that resonated with me on a personal level in “Lives on the Boundary” is labeling. Labeling is so toxic and I remember being labeled in high school without even knowing it. I was automatically seen as the ‘fat kid’. That was it. That was my label. No one needed to know anything more about me other than my outwardly appearance. What came with it? Kids would tell me I ate ten meals a day, couldn’t move or run or exercise. That no one would want me or be friends with me. In a take-away sense, when we give labels to students we judge them without knowing them. It’s a mystery for us to uncover; what are you good at? Where do you excel? How can I build on skills you already have? Kids know when teachers and other students talk negatively about them and it kills their motivation. Students, in a way, adapt to their labels. If adults see them as ‘slow’ then they’re going to trust that instinct and truly think they are that label.

My top 5 take-aways:
1. Labeling is an issue
2.“Students will float to the mark you set” (26).
3. Students learned bias/judgement (95).
4. Students adapt to their labels: “‘I used to be in the dumb math group, but then, um, my teacher found out it was too easy for me. So now I’m in with the smart kids” (91).
5. Not meeting expectations

To expand, I really like the quote that “students will float to the mark you set” (26). Students put faith and trust into adults and especially teachers. They’re supposed to be a safe space and a, hopefully, non-judgemental place. If a teacher sets the mark low for a student, they’ll meet that mark and nothing more because that’s what their teacher expects. If you set the bar higher they’ll reach higher and if they don’t quite meet that mark you end up with a quote I really like; “Shoot for the moon and if you don’t make it at least you are among the stars.” Something like that. Another thing I’d like to touch on is the responses that students gave when writing about pictures. I noticed that their responses are labeling. Joey gave a label to one by writing ‘hippy’. Other students (Dora and Juan) wrote about loneliness. What they saw from the pictures on the outside heavily affected how they viewed the individual; “The way he is sitting, he needs a haircut” or “he has long hair and funny eye-glasses”. None of these features affect who the person is as a whole. One of my other takeaways is not meeting expectations or not being good enough. Students are more complex and dynamic than their outward selves and part of what makes them unique is their background. Just because a student is not that good at English does not mean they’re incapable of critical thinking and learning. There are too many times where students are unable to unlock their full potential because they do not have a teacher (or adult) that takes them under their wing and helps them hone their skills. Students want to feel believed in and wanted. It’s what helps them flourish.

Hannah Dziadyk

6/10/2020 12:54:13 pm

My top 5 Takeaways
- This book talks about how low-performing students get left behind by the American educational system.
- While reading this book by Mike Rose he helps readers to understand and expose the failings of the current educational system and the challenge the stereotype that label remedial learners as lazy and unintelligent.
- Rose’s journey shows that there is no one set path for students to go down and not every student is going to be successful right away and that we are all different. His stories that he shares about his students is to show that they are smart and capable, even if the system labels them otherwise.
- One big stance that his argument turned towards was an overreliance on standardized testing. These tests place students in certain classes and like me I am not the best test taker and this can lead the way for students' success or off track.
- Another big takeaway was the unwillingness to accommodate the outside socioeconomic factors that affect students ability to learn.

Rose is telling us that not all students paths are the same and we as humans are all different and come from different experiences and may or may not need more help or guidance. The role of good practice in the classroom is trying to make all students feel like they are equal and have an equal shot at learnning and being able to follow their dreams and work hard in the classroom. The role of a good assignement engages a student and makes them excited or wanting to do the project and makes them invested in their learning because they are curious and wanting to know more.This text nearly 40 years old still resonates the same problems we were having 40 years ago which is inequality in the classroom and not giving every child an equal opportunity to grow and learn.

Maddie Butkus

6/10/2020 05:23:03 pm

I apologize for the super long response. I felt as if there was so much I could say about this book.

My top 7 Takeaways include:
1. Students living in low-income, poverty-stricken areas are not receiving the proper education they need in order to succeed in high school and especially college. Unfortunately, this is still true today. The way Rose explained it, it seemed as if the teachers that he encountered through his education within a low-income area were not providing him or even helping him learn what he would need to know for high school and later on, college. Rose goes on to state, “Given the troubling histories many of these students have, it's miraculous that any of them can lift the shroud of hopelessness sufficiently to make deliverance from these classes possible” (31). It is extremely hard for a student to try to “catch up” when it comes to curriculum, especially if their motivation is not there from the start. If they are not receiving the proper education they should, by the time they do later on in their years, students could feel as if it is already too late for them. While this seems to be the most obvious and thus biggest takeaway after reading through his work, I tried breaking down my next 6 biggest takeaways as reasons behind this biggest takeaway.
2. Student’s need to know at the very beginning of their education that what they are learning matters and has purpose. On top of this, they need to additionally be told that what they are learning will continue to come up along their educational careers. This could cause them to pay more attention and try harder within the classroom right from the start. It could additionally help in causing less confusion about a subject later on in their schooling. The goal here is to try to avoid what happened to Rose and I am sure many other students, “All the hours in class tend to blend into one long big stretch of time” (18). If students understand that they will be using what they learned later on in life, it will hopefully get them to better focus and thus break the school day up. If they are not told these things, their motivation is tossed out the window and the days just drag on.
3. The more teachers focus on reading within the classroom can lead to better grammatical and writing skills. As Rose stated, reading is a way to “open up the world” (21). Through reading he was able to connect words to pictures, create new friendships, learn new words and meanings, grow in his knowledge and so much more. When students learn how to properly read a work all by breaking it down, analyzing it, looking up new words, understanding tone, etc. they can become better at grammar and writing skills as well. They can see how an author wrote the way they did and thus use that writing as an example for their own. It is almost as if Rose is stating here that all the aspects held within English can be taught first and foremost by just reading.
4. Placement and Standardized testing held within schools do very little “good” for students as a whole. If students are just bad test takers, they could be incorrectly placed in lower level classes based off just struggling with a test. This same idea could be looked upon towards standardized testing as well. In the case for Rose, his test scores were somehow confused with another student’s yet the error went undetected so he was placed in “the vocational track for two years” (24). This utterly blew my mind. How could any school system let that slide? Additionally, these vocational classes, from Rose’s point of view, seemed to be completely unhelpful for learning and thus not properly taught to students in the ways that they needed. Rose went on to state, “…You’re defined by your school as ‘slow’; you’re placed into a curriculum that isn't designed to liberate you but to occupy you, or, if you're lucky, train you …” (28). With all of this in mind, there has to be something done regarding these types of test for they don’t seem to benefit students all that much and I know from experience just how stressful they can be.
5. The difference and thus importance of teachers who care about their students as well as know what they are doing compared to those teachers who do not VERY MUCH MATTERS!!! In order to get students to care about the subject matter and thus succeed within the classroom, teachers need to do the same. As Rose explained, the “journey up through the top levels of the American educational system will call for support in guidance at many, many points along the way” (47) which is especially why teachers need to know what they are teaching and how to teach it well. If they find themselves feeling on the unprepared side of things, a teacher should continue to take classes to make sure they can really provide for their students just as Rose himself did. Ad

Maddie Butkus (con't)

6/10/2020 05:24:09 pm

Additionally, Rose also mentioned when observing, how students responded very positively and more actively when they sensed that a teacher cared about their success. Lastly, while it makes it easier to relate to students when you have gone through similar experiences as they have, that does not necessarily have to be the case. As long as teachers can understand their students and have a good idea of where they are coming from, the students should be able to resonate with that in a positive way.
6. Getting to know your students is crucial in order to build a solid and useful curriculum for them. In order to teach in the best way possible for students to truly retain and engage in the information being taught, teachers should spend “a good deal of time considering their students’ needs and abilities” (92). I know that is impossible to teach every student in the best way possible for each of them individually but to get a sense of what students need a little more help than others is extremely helpful for both them and the teacher. It is with this knowledge that a great curriculum can be made. As Rose had mentioned when trying to come up with his own for the first time, sometimes teachers need to stray away from trying to create the perfect “golden lesson” and stick to the basics (94). Not every lesson is going to be absolutely amazing but as long as you can assess that the students have learned from it, that is all that matters in the long run. It is important to point out with this that included within the curriculum should be the normalized focus on grammar, reading, writing, etc. but it should be taught in ways that benefit the students’ needs. As Rose depicted within his work, this is not to say that there can not be new approaches to teach these “norms” of subjects, but as a whole, the subjects themselves should definitely be taught in one way or another.
7. Not all errors made by students have to be considered “bad” or a mistake. Within his writing Rose stated, “But error that crops up because a student is trying new things is a valuable kind of error, a sign of growth” (151). This one quote stood out to me like no other and really got me to change my thinking on errors, not only that my future students will make, but also on the errors even I made throughout my education. I had never thought of errors in this way but I completely understand Rose’s logic here and I now want this quote framed and hung within my classroom someday. While errors need to be fixed, if the student is trying something new, that mistake should not be scolded as a whole. Errors are meant to be made when trying new things, thats what makes trying something new a challenge where the outcome could either be good or bad but at least they tried. Once the error is corrected, they have now learned something completely new and can continue to do so in the correct way. Rose also states, “until error is isolated and cleaned up, it will not be possible for students to read and write critically, study literature, or toy with style” (141). Errors within English are inevitable whether while trying something new or just from lack of understanding but if they are left unfixed, it becomes virtually impossible to correctly have students do those aspects Rose had mentioned.

Maddie Butkus response to Lydia

6/10/2020 07:23:12 pm

Hey Lydia!

I think you have some great takeaways here from Rose’s work that similarly tie into Victor Villanueva’s as well. One point in particular that seems to be of great importance between the two is that of good assignments. As both Rose had written about and you have mentioned, good assignments need to underline the overall importance of not only comprehending the text but also analyzing it using literary terms and language. While Rose seems to allude to any given text, Villanueva takes this a step further. He suggests moving away from the “traditional ways of teaching literacy” and moving more towards a multicultural perspective of teaching. I think that this is so important, especially in our world today. What Villanueva is stating here is that while we might not realize it, a majority of the texts we read within the classroom more or less favors the White American population and thus inflicts language and dialect (among other things) onto multiple races. In order to combine what both authors are saying, I believe we have to incorporate more diverse readings within the classrooms and thus build good writing assignments from these readings.

alexa parham

6/10/2020 07:29:49 pm

Hi everyone,

First off, I want to say that there is so, so much that can be discussed from this book and I am going to try my best to summarize points that I felt were important and need attention. To start I am going to bullet some aspects I took away from this reading:
1) Standardized testing does NOT tell you how smart you are.
2) Family background and outside lives should always be considered when you are trying to help your students learn - and we should consider interpreting other cultures standpoints within the education world.
3) EVERYONE can learn: "'Any subject can be taught effectively in some intellectually honest form to any child at any stage of development'" (142) - sometimes they just need someone to understand and help them. Understanding and knowing your students will help you make their educational journey more successful and enjoyable.
4) Students can only go as high as you let them - meaning that a student can't reach their best abilities without you helping them raise that bar: "Students will float to the mark you set" (26).
5) Students should want to do well because they want to learn and not because they need that certain grade - this gets taken away from them: "My first enthusiasm about writing came because I wanted a teacher to like me" (102).
6) What you do as a teacher affects your students' education and life - what a teacher does can honestly make or break a students' educational confidence. If you don't think or encourage them to try, then who is going to? A lot of the time, they just need someone to believe in them - everyone needs a little bit of encouragement and support. Students need to feel comfortable for them to dive in.
7) Placement. For example, being placed where you cannot reach your full potential is not healthy and being placed somewhere where you are made to feel you are not smart enough only makes it worse.
Rose used his personal experiences as a student throughout his own educational journey to help him be the best teacher he can be. He saw what his past teachers did, and he learned from them, whether that was to follow in example or do something completely different.
I am going to start by putting this quote out there: "But now I was trying hard, and I could see how limited I was" (59). I think that this quote can be read in many ways, leading you into many different directions. A student needs a teacher to put in that effort, which makes them want to try. And, when they are finally given this, they realize how "limited" or honestly how bad they had it before. It comes as a shock, but they know that someone cares, and someone is willing to help them get on the right track. Overall, I think this has a lot to do with the purpose of what Rose is trying to say.
Standardized Testing has never been my friend, like many others. This kind of testing limits a student and hinders their confidence in their learning and in themselves. How do I know this? One, because of this book, and two, because I had this experience. For the longest time, I convinced myself that I wasn't smart enough or maybe I was just dumb… all of my friends told them their scores and they were all better than mine. I was never a good test taker in this department and I let this aspect of my life tear me down (like many others). Eventually I realized, I was not dumb or stupid… I was just a bad test taker. And, my grades in school came through to show this. Many students go through similar struggles and it can break them.
Everyone and I mean EVERYONE can learn. They just need that one teacher to help them. That one teacher to make them feel as though they can do this. That one teacher that strays from the rest and motivates them to be the best they can be and makes them want to learn. This is something Rose struggles with, and I am sure, every other person in the world. Teacher have such an important job that effects each one of their students' lives and many do not see how important this job is. Helping students reach their highest capabilities with NO limits, make sure these students are placed in the right spot, and making sure they know that you understand. Understanding and knowing your students will make your life easier and theirs. Once you know them, you will know how to help them want to learn. Once they realize they can do it… they will want to do it.
I know from my own experience that these specific number grades on tests or essays or even verbal approval gets to students. I found myself (and I am not going to lie, still find myself) looking for that approval. It has almost become a habit of mine. I do something or write something, and I almost need my professor to tell me it's good. Without that approval, I question my own capabilities, and this is because of my past teachers who made you feel low, constantly. This leads you into wanting that one "good job" or "well done". You want your teacher to see that you tried and that you ar

alexa parham - leaving off from where it cuts off above^

6/10/2020 07:31:15 pm

This leads you into wanting that one "good job" or "well done". You want your teacher to see that you tried and that you are trying to be that "A" student. But, this just leads you into a place where that one good job isn't enough because you cannot believe in yourself. I think this is something major that shines through the lines in this book. And, a lot of this has to do with a student's confidence. I was torn down so many times that I began to believe them which led me into a place where I would only question myself instead of being proud for trying my best. Finally, I found a way through professors and advisors to be proud of myself. I was shown that I could believe in myself.

Megan

6/11/2020 08:56:54 am

Hi Alexa!

First of all, wow. I love how passionate you clearly are about this and I completely agree with all of your points. I feel like the biggest thing I've noticed is how clear it is to everyone that standardized testing is not a valid scale for how well or how poorly a student is doing. I think I have an interesting perspective to offer because I am actually the opposite - I am a superb test taker, but that often results in me not truly learning anything critically. I have had a few teachers in high school who favored writing projects over tests to see how much we truly learned from the material, and I always found that so much more helpful! I had a teacher my junior and senior years of high school who gave us a packet of 50 or so writing responses and projects and told us periodically to choose a prompt we liked and felt we could complete and do it. He even said if we had a different idea then we could do it as long as he approved it. I produced some of my best work in that class and it was something I've valued ever since. I find that most college level professors favor more hands on assignments like projects or papers instead of tests unless needed for this exact reason. And even if we have a test, there are ways to make them a bit more critical and easier for people who maybe don't test as well. You're right - everyone CAN learn and deserves a fair chance to learn how they can best!

Megan

6/11/2020 08:47:50 am

The book starts with Mike Rose introducing a past student who had taken the English class with him several times but dropping the class usually as well. By introducing her as a human before talking about her issues with remedial English I felt like the main point of Laura was not that she was unsure of her writing skills, but rather her actual life outside of the classroom. I think that this shows one of the biggest takeaways I saw in the book – Students should be accepted as themselves wholly, instead of only being seen by their academic achievements. Throughout the book, Mike Rose can be seen giving students a chance. He was actively patient and did his best continuously to help students who seemed impossible learn how to learn. The best way to get a student to be truly involved and engaged is to show that you care about them. As said in the email from LT last night, a good teacher is not just a teacher who gets along with everybody. A good teacher is somebody who cares deeply for their student's wellbeing and learning. The guidance from good teachers is clearly incredibly powerful. Mike Rose mentions his own teachers in his book, and we can see how their influence allowed him to grow into the person he has. I also think that there is a lot of value in Chapter 2, where Mike Rose writes about his childhood. He is candid and admits that he struggled with class but doesn’t make it seem like the end of the world at all. I know personally, I feel like failing an assignment is akin to dying. I liked to see that in this book the value of education is not downplayed, but education is also not used to make it seem as though ‘good’ students (or students who received good grades) and people who went to school were better than students receiving poor grades or who could not go to school.

1. The value of students being seen beyond the classroom.

2. The importance of being patient with your students.

3. No one is better than anyone else because of different experiences and/or abilities.

4. Be a good teacher rather than a friendly teacher – being their friend is not your job, and things that will ultimately benefit them come before your relationship.

5. Labels can be more impactful than people realize.

6. Standardized testing isn’t the best way to gauge a student’s ability.

Fiona Bell

6/11/2020 08:50:29 am

Some of the takeaways I got from Lives On The Boundary:
- when students assume they'll make mistakes or have been told they'll make mistakes, they're more inclined to stop trying. They get frustrated with the material and, inevitably, frustrated with themselves and these two factors add to a slippery slope leading to the student giving up.
- "we need to question perceived reception, shift continually from the standard lens"
- the curriculum in developmental English "fosters attitudes and beliefs about written language that, more than anything, keep students from becoming fully, richly literate"
- writing, based off of the curriculum its being taught, can easily be interpreted as something extremely boring and painful
- just because a student is misunderstanding a test or getting the answers wrong doesn't mean they aren't fully capable or that their reasoning is distorted
- the American dream: "education held the power to equalize things".

Regarding how it related to the content in Why Johnny Can't, I think that ties into the way students are being taught and the curriculum itself. That does not mean the blame should be pinned on the teachers, it more means that there needs to be a significant shift in the way they're being told to teach and the way they're going about it. More emphasis needs to be put on encouraging/helping the students who aren't completely grasping the content being taught. I think this can especially be seen through Rose's time teaching the veterans: taking the time to get to know them, learn what they're capable of, what they're not sure of/their abilities that they aren't fully confident in.

What resonated with me on a personal level was how important it is to not just toss new content at students and expect them to grasp it immediately/be frustrated and disappointed when they don't. I think it takes time and patience and these are both things Rose was excellent in executing.

Paige Couture

6/11/2020 09:53:44 am

Hi Fiona,

I agree with you about students who are told that they’ll make mistakes, will end up making them. That’s probably one of the biggest reasons why Lives On The Boundary was written: to make a responsive classroom that meets all individual children’s needs. When I had to take lower level classes in high school, I was lucky enough to have teachers that encouraged me to keep going. Not that the work was hard, but I felt like I was good enough to pass. I believe that this helped me along the way if I had mean teachers I probably would have not passed. This experience gave me the tools to be an emotionally responsive educator to children in my own classroom. Learning in a classroom can become boring and painful when it does not capture their interest. That is why it’s important to develop a connection with them individually, to make lessons interesting enough for them to get something out of it. One of the most important aspect an educator should take away from Rose is patience, especially for those children who lack confidence in what they are learning.

Paige Couture

6/11/2020 09:54:40 am

but I felt like I wasn't good enough to pass. *

Kylie Bock

6/11/2020 10:56:50 am

Hi Fiona!
I agree when you said that it is vital to not just throw new concepts or content at students. From the reading, I was able to see how every single student learns differently and expecting them to conform to fit standards that other people think are important. Why Johnny Can't Read connects directly to this in stating that some major reform needs to be done to give our students the best education that they deserve. Great response to the reading!

Paige Couture

6/11/2020 09:42:28 am

• The fear of being ridiculed or labeled.
• Responsiveness to culture and diversity
• The connection educators had with students and analyzing work
• Developmentally appropriate lessons that meet children’s needs (speech, grammar, writing, spelling, tests, etc.)
• Instead of punishing students, encourage them to aim for reading/writing excellence. Respond to the needs of children to find their own voice.

During high school, I had to take lower level classes than the rest of my friends were in. I was always afraid that they would ask themselves, “why is she in a lower level grade than I am?” I learned differently than others, I needed somebody to show me and not just tell me how to do things. I did have one friend that was there with me and asked me why I was taking that class. I said that I had trouble with math. I was always afraid that other students would think I was dumb or just question themselves why I was not in the same classes. This relates to other students in “Lives on the Boundary” when they thought that they were not good at writing or being afraid that they would look stupid and panic. My teachers were supportive in those classrooms. They were not judgmental, responded to my needs and were encouraging. All these aspects are what Mike Rose is portraying in “Lives on the Boundary” to inspiring teachers.
The sense that was happening back in that time was a lack of education. The answers that people were given to at the time was to go back to the basics. Teachers needed to teach students writing from the beginning: “parts of speech, grammar, punctuation, spelling, and usage (5)”. The goal is basically to help students find their own voice in writing. What resonated with me on a personal level were two things: the lack of confidence the student had within themselves, thinking that they are not a good writer and the part about writing down important notes in the classroom. The lack of confidence resonates with me more about becoming a teacher. Since I started my career, I have always been a lead teacher but usually with another leader in the room with me. I think of this in a way, that the other teacher helps tremendously. Another side of me thinks, “what if I’m not good enough to take on the responsibility to run a full classroom by myself?” As a student, I believe the first thing I was ever taught was to write down notes that were only important. I think that is why I never had trouble writing notes down, because I had been taught that since I started school.
Rose is telling us about students that most of them are self-conscious about writing, at least in the beginning. He also gives good practice advice in the classroom: “Oh, well, ‘cause the teacher was just talking about people and reading letters and such. She didn’t cover anything important (4).” Rose is telling us about the role of good reading/writing assignments for us to pursue the advice in our own teaching practices. The way that this text, 40-years-old, still resonates today because the mistakes that were made in the past can now be changed to make better teaching practices in the future. He also demonstrates how teachers’ roles highly impacts a student. It is also clear that Mike Rose was patient with the students that he worked with. Every individual student learns differently. As teachers, we do not really know what goes in in children’s homes when they leave from school. Educator’s should be aware of this, especially when children are not acting like themselves the next day. A big thing that I took from Mike Rose was that he likes to make learning fun for children. This plays a huge role on how I plan my lessons. During school hours, I try to know every individual student: what they like, dislike, favorite color, etc. I try to interpret their individual interest into their lessons to make it more entertaining for them, rather than “work”. I feel like if children are more into what they are learning, they will take information from it for the rest of their lives.
In “Maybe a Colony: And Still Another Critique of the Comp Community,” Victor Villaneuva also talks about multiculturalism. Throughout the passage, he argues that it is not diverse with literature or language. He states: “the percentage of economic success among those of color never on a par wit those not among the people of color (7).” Rose was a believer in creating a responsive classroom. This includes educating students on culturalism and diversity.

Kylie Bock

6/11/2020 10:53:04 am

Here are some things that I thought to be significant:

1. The marginalization of ESL learners or students with learning disabilities within America’s flawed education strategies
2. How people who have migrated to the United States are given little to no aid in preparing young students for the transition into American classrooms
3. Rose’s childhood and family situation (Chapter 1-2)
4. The differences and similarities between “vocational” and remedial “students” (Chapters 5-6)
5. Learning grammar first is not improving student’s writing
6. Harold’s story

To be honest, I was not expecting to enjoy reading this novel as much as I did. I found it to be interesting, thought provoking, and challenging. The content Rose provided as readers was heavy and things we as future educators tend to overlook sometimes depending on your experience with the American education system. That being said, I think Rose is arguing that the strategies educators are told to use to measure and evaluate students is majorly flawed. Instead of accommodating or modifying lessons and objectives to fit the needs of students, we are forcing students to accommodate and fit the mold of our margins. As an average student from a working middle class family, Rose challenged my perception of education within America. He made me aware and better educated on how flawed this education system has been over the years. Just because I was able to fit the mold of this marginalized system does not make it right or effective. He is telling us that learning is affected by numerous factors such as a student’s background, family life, medical history, etc. It is almost impossible to fit the needs of every student when they all have their own stories and experiences. Good practice in the classroom comes from being patient, empathetic, and assuring students they are successful and equal. Properly structured reading and writing assignments make students excited and eager to do the work, not anxious or embarrassed because they are not necessarily on the same level as other students (which they shouldn’t be expected to be). It is shocking to me that this book is 40 years old because the American education system has not changed that much I feel. Although IEPs and other student’s needs are definitely being better helped than prior generations, there is still so much work to do.

Week Three, Post One: Finally talking about Lives on The Boundary

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Summer 2020 ENGL 301

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