WEEK FOUR, POST ONE: Kittle & Delpit

TORDA'S FALL 2022 TEACHING SITE

WEEK FOUR, POST ONE: Kittle & Delpit

6/15/2020

IN MANY WAYS, our reading this week from Kittle and Delpit say similar things, but there are differences sometimes subtle ones and sometimes unspoken ones.

Consider, also, the difference in the position of our two writers. Kittle enjoys a great deal of privilege for a public school teacher. As you will read in Write Beside Them, the course she is describing here is an elective writing course for seniors in high school--these are students who want to participate in this intensive writing experience. That said, and I want to be very clear about this, I don't think there is anything that she writes about that I think wouldn't work in any writing/reading classroom.

Delpit, a black scholar in the field of Rhetoric and Composition, was blasted for her book Other People's Children when it came out originally in the late 80s. This was the moment in literacy instruction where teachers and scholars were turning towards what we now call "process pedagogy." In Process Pedagogy, students were invited to write more freely, with seemingly less concern for the conventions of standardized written English. Delpit expressed concern for some aspects of the process movement for what it was doing for Black and Brown students in public school classrooms. It was many years after the publication of her research in schools with Black and Brown students that white scholars started to entertain the possibility that process was not the solution to every writing struggle in every writing classroom.

Compare and Contrast what Kittle and Delpit are telling us about how we bring students into the world of literacy. As we did for Week Three, please respond specifically and directly to the person who posts before you. If you are the first person to post, please respond to the last person, who posts (there are 12 people in our class). Once everyone has posted, you can feel free to respond to any of your classmates.

Ideally, by posting with purpose, you will make sure that, as a class, we have covered all of the most important takeaways from these to teacher/scholars. We will help each other learn by paying deep attention to what we each write.

24 Comments

alexa parham

6/16/2020 09:41:42 pm

After reading both, "Write Beside Them", by Kittle, and "Other People's Children", by Delpit, the main points that stuck out to me where about where a child or student is coming from. I think both of these works depict the issues with struggling to understand a student, whether it be a social and cultural issue or if it is just a student who is struggling personally.
We, as teachers, do not know what happens to students outside of the school walls and there was one thing that really moved me in Kittle's book. The students in her classroom where able to say things on paper that they struggle to say out loud and writing for them is a way to let this pain out. Writing helped these students overcome pain and fear. Fear for what others will think or what they will think about themselves. As a teacher, you do not know everything that your student is struggling with or going through. Kittle found herself stunned after reading what Rick had to say about her family life and she says: "I wish I had known this is what he was living with; I would have been kinder, more patient, more willing to listen. But we don't know. Too often we'll never know" (Kittle 60). Kittle is upset with her own behavior before she understood her student and say regrets being this way. It can be so easy to get mad and frustrated with the student who does not seem to be trying or tries to make a joke out of what your trying to do. You want to freak out sometimes, but you cannot. You have to remember to be patient, even when it seems like the hardest thing you have to do in that moment. You students may be suffering and might not have someone to help them deal with the pain which causes them to act differently. In this case, Rick was pushing everyone away and using humor and the "I don't care" attitude as his mechanism, but in the end, he was able to open up and let out his feelings on paper. Sometimes things are hard to say physically, so writing them on paper is what saves you.
Kittles discusses so many things in parts 1, 2, 3, and 6, but the connections she tries to have with her students felt like the overall gist of these chapters. She discusses how she, herself, struggles with the writing process and struggles with what to do with what she is writing and how she feels. After teaching multiple classes, it clicks - she realizes she struggles herself with this writing process and never shared this with the students she was teaching. It is important to relate with your students sharing the fact that you are human too. You have personal experiences and you struggles putting them down on paper. I think it is important to show your students that you have your battles yourself - then they do not have to feel so ashamed in themselves (their own teacher does it too!). She sits with her students and helps them with the PROCESS and does not have them go about this all on their own leaving her to try to fix what has already been done. It is hard to understand and change the writing after the process is complete. This teaching strategy allows her to understand her students and her students to understand themselves while learning. She teaches her students that it is okay to not like what you wrote immediately. She explains that writing consistently is important and writing with "stamina" is also important. You can't expect great writing to come out on the first sentence. You just write through the mistakes and what you do not love - then take a break and go back to it - the PROCESS is so important.

Delpit, on the other hand, discusses cultural indifferences that hinder a student's development. She shares heartbreaking experiences containing racial issues. Students who are trying are being bullied by their teachers. Everything they do is received as wrong and all they get back is negative feedback - this hinders their love for the classroom and understanding of the world. Delpit shares that these children were only trying to share emotions, but these teachers take it as disrespectful or bad behavior. They do not look at them - they look at their race and racial stereotypes. These teachers assume their background. Kittle discusses how important it is to know that you do not know what is going on in their life, so you should not be making it worse. This also has a major connection with our underserved population research assignment. These children are judges before they are understood, and this affects them deeply. They are unable to know what that student - teacher relationship feels like in most cases. They do not look at their schooling as a good memory, which leads them to futures where they may not graduate. Professor Torda also mentioned that they will not want to become a teacher for the reason we want to or just in general. They did not have these same experiences. Being patient and understanding is what these teachers need to do. The problem is that they did not look past the stereotypical barrier: "&hell

alexa - continuing from where it cuts off above^

6/16/2020 09:43:52 pm

Being patient and understanding is what these teachers need to do. The problem is that they did not look past the stereotypical barrier: "…and see damaged and dangerous caricatures of the vulnerable and impressionable beings before them" (Delpit 13). This also circles back to our discussion last Thursday about cultural differences. It is important to see these differences and LEARN from them and do not use them as an excuse to hurt a child from a different background. Understanding and supporting cultural differences shapes the education community - UNDERSTANDING is key.

Lydia

6/17/2020 02:58:41 pm

Hi Alexa!

You had many great points in your post! And I totally understand why you had so much more written down for Kittle than Delpit since there was so much more info on her from the readings.

The points on Kittle I wanted to make were these: Rick, Kittle's own struggles with writing, learning never ends. I felt terribly both for Rick, for having gone through what he did, and Kittle, for not having been able to see that Rick was in pain, and then blaming herself for it. We later learn that he loves to write! And that, the fact that he did not participate at all in class that day really meant something was wrong. He didn't just "not feel like it," he really was struggling at home, and this writing was too hard for him to do with everything he was grappling with his mom and family life. I love how approachable and accessible Kittle makes both writing for her students in class, and teaching for teacher candidates like us. I'm not gonna lie, I have so many fears (I'm sure some are rational, but some are probably crazy too!) going into teaching that, just a teeny bit, this reading chilled me out -- just a little. The last point on Kittle seems to nudge at is that, learning never ends, it is a LIFELONG process. If you, as the teacher, come from such a high and might place, well, what chance do they, as the lowly student have in the classroom? They won't want to share anything with you, they are way too preoccupied with teen-aged drama, and the judgement that they fear from you and their peers is just too great! The one last thing I wanted to touch upon was with Delpit. I agree with pretty much everything you said about her and her views, but what I forgot in my writing was what you said about the underserved population not wanting to become teachers because their experience through school was just so bad or traumatizing. And for the ones that do finally make it, they don't do it simply for the sake of teaching, let's be honest, they do it because they have something to prove. And I don't blame them! They have something to prove to themselves, the world, or trying to prove to other youths of the underserved community they came from, that they can make it too. Great job with your post, I loved reading it :)

Hannah Dziadyk

6/17/2020 11:22:40 am

Stereotypes is what we judge people by on the way they look and what they wear. Everyone does it, even teachers to students which is not right in any format. Im not saying that every teacher does it but a lot of people do it not even talking about just teachers but in the world we all judge each other. I completely agree with Alexas point when she said that both of these works summerize and give an example of students not understanding the student at all. Which is something that can be easily done especially in a classroom with 20 other potential students that the teacher also has to worry about. Also in the Kittle's book how students may not want to talk about their experiences of outside of school but writing them down can be a way for them to let it out of their head and giving it to us teachers for a way to better understand our students. Every student should be given an opportunity for a safe learning environment. Students who may appear to be different fear that other students will judge them so they don't need their teacher doing the same to them. Patience is an important factor when in comes to teaching because students need that in order for them to grow and become a better learner. You need to be understanding that not every student wil be the same and in each of these works the Kittle and Delpit it was stated multiple times that every student has a different story to tell and you have to be willing to listen and try and understand their experiences and what you may be able to do to help that student succeed. The point is that we are all humans and we are the same, even as teachers they are still learning and improving on their writing just as the students are. We are learning and growing together, i just may be that we are all on different parts of that process. It is important to show your students who may be struggling that you go through battles too and this is just a battle that has to be fought and won. That they can face any problem or adversity with the right mindset and support to help them along the way. The support can come from friends or family but also the schools and teachers can help to provide that comfort and stability. This hit more on the Kittle writing. For the Delpit I agree with Alexa when this was more about the cultural differences that can disturb a student's development in their education. Pointing to the racial issues that I read which were hard to read and something I never want to see or do to my future students. Everything that the students due to maybe giving an innocent hug as a young children due often to a kid getting C's is good enought. They recieve negative feedback on their actions and feel as if what they do is wrong. Wanting to get higher than a C is a goal that can be achieved and giving a hug as a preschooler is something kids due at that age but due to it being a black boy giving a young white girl a hug it is considered inappropriate. Due to these bad memories for these students they feel as school is not for them and leads them at a higher risk of not graduating. There is not excuse to exclude a child just because they may be different from your experience growing up and in school, this gives us the chance to learn more by connecting with your students making their education a priority and getting the best effort from them to make them successful for their future.

Megan

6/23/2020 08:34:48 am

Hi Hannah!

I agree with your point on how most teachers judge their students, but I want to argue that everyone actually does it. It isn't anyone's fault and it really truly is just a default that we cannot help, but since it actively harms students that doesn't just make it okay. It is super unfair that teachers inherently prefer students that they can relate to in one way or another, but it is a reality that we just have to accept and deal with from there. The point that we are all humans is super important! My favorite teachers are the ones who were funny, helpful, and down to earth. They went out of their way to humanize themselves so that we could all feel like we're on an equal playing field. Memories of not being good enough or being shamed for something innocent is something that people take personally (rightfully so) and it's a kind of trauma that cannot be easily healed because your assumption is that you were just overreacting. Students deserve much better!

Lydia

6/17/2020 02:34:44 pm

For these two readings, I will start with the similarities. Both Kittle and Delpit’s teaching style and philosophy seem to focus vastly on the student. This means, for Delpit (though much of what she described seemed to be from the position of an observer, not as a teacher of her own class) focusing on helping with the struggles and weaknesses of students, instead of reprimanding what they haven’t done, or should’ve done. As mentioned, she would speak to the student in question’s teacher after a behavioral issue or otherwise and the teacher in each case was always negative and took on a very biased and discriminatory stance. I should mention, that Delpit is an African American English teacher who is a strong advocate for children of color in American schools. She insists that students need to be able to write freely and not forced to adhere strictly to rules and guidelines. Unfortunately for her, this way of thinking was not popular because people like Kittle think like this too. In Kittle’s book, she explicitly states time and time again, that students need to read what they like and prompted to write about things they like or care about. She says that too many times, students get caught up with grades, rubrics and what the teacher “wants” as opposed to what writing should be about. And that, for Kittle, is something that should be free-flowing, not at all constricting.

The differences of course, is that Delpit is an advocate for black youths in America and she focuses much of her research and energy there. She says that African American youths are constantly at a disadvantage in American schools and (both black and white) teachers need to shift the way they are treating Black youths in the classroom. In her introduction, she gave an example of the high school-aged boy whose mother was very involved with her son’s academics. The boy’s motherhad asked periodically on the progress of her son. The teachers always had positive things to say and reassured her that he was doing fine. When grades came home, she was understandable, shocked that her son had received C’s and D’s. Upon confronting the teachers, they just stated that, simply, these grades are good enough for him. Clearly, they held him to a different standard, one where he was always going to lose, without possibility or chance to excel. Kittle, on the other hand, is a white woman who teaches in New Hampshire. Not to say that there are no minority students living up in NH, I’m sure there are a lot less. Regardless, she still has to deal with the challenges of most, if not all public schools. For example, under-funding, over-crowded classes, parent issues, homelessness, drugs, abuse, the list goes on. Since she deals with high schoolers, her philosophy is to let the story come out of the student. She says that, they all have them, and they are all screaming to be written down. That all students have the ability to be excellent writers and when given the chance and some space, they will write. But they must write A LOT. Kittle has her students write every day, multiple times a day in class and for homework. She also lets her students read anything they chose in class. Regardless of the type of teacher you are, or the demographic in which you teach, your number one job is to hold every student to the highest standards and expectations. At least, that will be what I carry with me into the classroom when I do teach, and furthermore, try to reinforce and constantly remind myself of.

Paige Couture

6/19/2020 07:47:51 am

Hi Lydia,

You make a good point when you said both Kittle and Delpit’s style and philosophy focus on the student. I would hope that it focuses on the students! With that being said, I do find that they are both strongly connected with children’s social-emotional aspect, specifically (I’ll just call them children because this could go for any age). Delpit has a connection with those who are colored in American schools. On the other hand, Kittle has the same connection with children who come from hard backgrounds: divorce, drugs, abuse, loss, poverty, etc. In Kittle’s mind, there is no such thing as bad students and tries to find the real reason behind their behavior. Having children write out their own story is a great way for them to let of steam or any emotional issue that they are not comfortable with talking about. Like you said, it also allows them to have their own space. Kittle has her students write every day, multiple times a day for class and homework. Not only does this help students become excellent writers, it will improve skill as well. Any skill. I also think that allowing students to choose whatever book they want is a good way to encourage students to read. That just gave me a great idea to start allowing my Pre-K children to pick their own book or pick a book for me to read in the afternoon. We do allow children to decide what book they want to read before nap time and throughout the day. In the afternoon, I like to do some activity with them: dancing, reading an audio book, watching an educational video, yoga, sensory play, etc. They are too young to know how to write full sentences. However, as a Pre-K teacher I can get them to start freewriting in their own way. I could ask them to tell their own story on a piece of paper. It may not look perfect, what matters is the children know what they are writing and feel connected to the piece.

Paige Couture

6/18/2020 04:59:22 pm

The most important fact that I took away from Kittle’s writing advice was: “I now believe you really can’t teach writing well unless you write yourself (7).” As a writer myself, I can relate to this statement. When we write, we learn more about what to do and what not to do. We also learn how to write properly and overcome writers block. How can we teach other students to not make the same mistakes we have done while writing, when we have not experienced this ourselves? Even though Delpit had gotten negative feedback for writing her book about how process pedagogy was concerning for diverse students, she had written something to educate her students. Delpit goes on to say: “writing is a process and by focusing on the process and habits of a writer, writing improves (12).” Here, Kittle is saying that it is easy for students to not think deeply about writing techniques. She encourages students to find their own voice and revise with the help of other peers and the teacher. Kittle also believes that students write freely instead of forcing them to write something they would not be interested in. Writing relies based upon the student’s experiences. It also is based from the confidence of the writer. Write something that you have knowledge on. Kittle seems to be patient and want to teach students.
When comparing both authors, Delpit argues that diverse and white children are being treated poorly at schools. She reaches out to teachers in hopes of making school a better community for those who are poor and diverse: “what are we really doing to better educate poor children and children of color (14).” More education for teachers, higher standards and revising curriculum are all good suggestions. She goes on to ask: “what should we be doing (15)?” The answer Delpit gave us was simple, yet moving: how do we connect with each other? This gave me a lot to teach about in my practices. An example Delpit gave us of this when she gets a phone call from a parent saying she is putting her academically achieved fourteen-year-old African American son into a private school. Delpit was taken aback. She tried to convince the parent to let her child stay, telling her that he was doing okay. There was a disbelief from the parent that her son had gotten Cs and Ds on his report card. Delpit asked why she was upset? He was passing. Those who are doing the best they can, no child should be pushed to the point where they want to give up. Delpit goes on to say adults do not want to be looked at as bad, the last thing they ever would want to do is damage children, they just refuse to ask for help. Perhaps, that is the situation that happened here with the fourteen-year-old son. If the parent had gotten more help for her son from other teachers, maybe he would not have to be sent to a private school. Even though Delpit faces unfair treatment in diverse schools, Kittle has to deal with some tough challenges herself. There are children who come from many backgrounds, we truly do not know what a child goes through at home unless educators create a close bond with them. Kittle has children that come from backgrounds with drugs, divorce, parent relationship trouble, etc. Kittle believes that every child has a story to tell and that is where heart of writing lies. A message that I have taken from both authors to put into my teaching skills, it would be to allow children to write their story. It does not matter what type of background the child comes from. Every student deserves to be treated the same.

Brianna

6/18/2020 07:41:43 pm

Hi Paige!
I think you brought up a great quote. I noticed too that Kittle is right and I feel that it is helpful to write as well. I used to think freewriting was a waste of time when I was younger but realized how valuable it can be. I actually do freewriting before I write an essay and just write the first thing that come to mind when I think about that specific book or topic. I think you brought up a valuable point and think that in a way teacher are also still learning, and us writing beside them will not only help our writing, but also help put us in the student’s shoes. I do think it is very important to students to find their own voice and use it. During Kittle’s work, the students were able to use their voices to convey an event that happened in their life, a loss, or a memory. I do think that letting the students write freely instead of limiting them, makes writing more engaging. Delpit also wanted to answer the same message as Kittle which was how to reach students. Both Delpit and Kittle believed that students learn through meaningful communication and writing. I think that you are right and that both authors really emphasize that students come from different backgrounds and that every child does have a story to tell whether it is good or bad.

Brianna

6/18/2020 07:16:57 pm

In both the Kittle’s “Write Beside Them” and Delpit’s “Other People’s Children,” both focus mainly on how to best help their students and factor in their social and emotional needs. Kittle explains that many students she has worked with have experienced loss, poverty, or other social or emotional problems. Writing helped these students overcome the pain that they felt through these hardships. Kittle doesn’t label students as bad students and instead she understands that there is something deeper usually troubling the student. Rick was a student who did not want to write even towards the end of the year and said that he had nothing to write about. She knew that something was bothering him and took him aside and said that she knows he thinks of this as a joke, and knows that he can do better. Sure enough the next day he comes in with a letter speaking about his hardships with his mother and the loss of his grandmother. Rick says that he didn’t even have time to grieve and knows that he hasn’t been doing well in school but has had a hard time focusing. Rick may have had an attitude like he didn’t care but really just had other things on his mind. Kittle shows that it is important to have patience with students because we do not know what’s going on in their personal life. Usually the “I don’t care” attitude is a front that a student uses to mask pain that they are dealing with. Kittle shows that many of these students write things that they may not feel comfortable saying but need to get out on paper. Kittle also says the students writing can also be a way of them asking for help. She finds ways for students to show their creativity through writing and also believes that you need to also write with your students. Kittle and Delpit both believe that students learn to write in meaningful contexts. They also both focused more on freewriting or writing with fluency and not exactly correctness. Delpit argues that many of her students have fluency and need to learn the skills that will help them get a job or get into college. She believes that many of her students are brilliant but may not be able to pass the SATs. Delpit argues that students need technical skills to open doors and need to be able to think critically and creatively to participate in meaningful and potentially liberating work. Delpit and Kittle want to make sure that all students are able to be heard. Delpict also emphasizes how students in a way, are stripped of their voice and have to write and talk a certain way. She shows how students should not constantly be corrected when it comes to writing or speaking. People acquire new dialect mostly through interaction with speakers of the dialect, not by constantly being corrected. Students also learn to write if you direct your focus off of constantly correcting them and focus more on their fluency. Delpict believes that that students really learn through meaningful communication and writing.

Kaylee Tavares

6/22/2020 04:09:45 pm

Hi Brianna,
I think the conversation about SAT's in Delpit's work was very interesting. I think the question of technical intelligence and the ability to communicate and express oneself will always be prevalent. I think, at times, it is very worthwhile to ensure that students feel as though they can communicate openly without being corrected. In an EDHM class last semester, we read a story about a teacher who refused to correct or discourage the use of slang terms because she believed it was a form of shaming one's home culture. At the same time, it is true that in order to perform well at a job interview or to write an effective college essays, students do need to be aware of the standard English conventions. It is a difficult topic, and I believe a balance of the two is likely needed, though it is difficult to achieve.

Maddie Butkus

6/19/2020 02:18:01 pm

Going off of what you had stated Brianna, I too believe that both works of Kittle’s “Write Besides Them” and Delpit’s “Other People’s Children” focus mainly around how to best help their students by factoring in their social and emotional needs. I want to take this a step further by also adding a main focus of eliminating assumptions when it comes to teaching their students. Mentioned specifically within both works, these authors stated how teachers make assumptions about students just through their own knowledge / understanding of a general idea. In the case of these works, general idea could mean either how a student acts, their demeanor, where they are from, their race, their background, etc.

As you had also mentioned Brianna, one of Kittle’s students Rick is a prime example of how she pushed those assumptions to the side and got Rick to speak about what was truly going on with himself. Kittle stated, “And you know, when you take away accusations and assumptions (you don’t care!) and look a kid in the eyes and say, ‘I know you can do better and I’m waiting for you to show me,’ it’s hard for them to keep resisting” (59). It was with this type of strategy used on Rick towards the end of this class that Kittle was able to understand through his writing why Rick had been acting the way he had within her classroom. While she was glad to have acquired this information about Rick, she wished that she could have gotten this out him in the beginning of the semester so that she could have known ahead of time why he was struggling to focus and thus help him improve throughout the year. This just further enhances my additional main focus : Once we eliminate assumptions (preferably at the beginning of the semester), we can better understand why a student is struggling and what we as teachers can do in order to better help our students’ learning. As is stressed within arguably all the works we have read thus far about teaching, we have to learn / know / understand our students in order to teach them in the best ways possible.

While Kittle puts these assumptions aside within her classroom, in Delpit’s work, she explains how the teachers that she observed were making “big assumptions” (14) towards their students, specifically Anthony, Charles and Terrence. To make matters worse, these teachers were directing these assumptions around pure racism and thus misunderstanding why exactly these students were struggling. Delpit stated that, “Carolyn and the other teachers in the school are newly faced with a population of children with whom they are completely unfamiliar” (11) yet they take what little knowledge they know and base assumptions upon these students as to why they aren’t succeeding within the classroom. The overall problem included with this is how much the role of “power” plays into these bias assumptions. Delpit stated it perfectly, “Indeed, in the educational institutions of this country, the possibilities for poor people and for people of color to find themselves, determine the self each should be, involve a power that lies outside of the self. It is others who determine how they should act, how they are to be judged” (15). These teachers, who hold the power to educate their students in the best way possible in order to truly learn, do not themselves truly learn about their students or their background and thus they determine on their own what the students’ self worth is.

So the questions stands, “What should we as teachers supposed to be doing regarding these assumptions?” Both Kittle and Delpit seem to have different answers themselves but do tie into each other in general. From Kittle’s standpoint, the answer is to ignore these assumptions from the beginning and to get to know your students right away. As seen through her work with Rick, if teachers keep ignoring their students’ demeanors over time and wait till the very end to finally ignore these assumptions, a whole semester can go by without truly knowing why a student is struggling. This as a whole could inevitably mean that the student(s) did not retain or even learn the information being taught. From Delpit’s standpoint, she takes Kittle’s answer a bit deeper by stating that the answer(s) lie “in some basic understandings of who we are and how we are connected to and disconnected from one another” (15). While getting to know our students is important, we must also understand who we are as teachers and thus what we know about the students we are teaching. It is as if Delpit is implying that teachers should ask the questions, “What do I truly know about where this student is from?”, “Can I relate to this student in any way?”, “What is my biased opinion of this student and what should be my unbiased opinion be?

Fiona Bell

6/20/2020 02:58:41 pm

Hi Maddie ! I’m a fan of everything you wrote but I’m gonna try to keep this short. I really liked how you focused directly on assumptions and how they impact us in the long run/ how power plays into bias assumptions/ how a good majority of teachers aren’t fully invested in their students backgrounds (or care learn about them at all??) & and how they then determine on their own what the students’ self-worth is - I thought this part was very well said and I think you’re completely right: for some its fairly effortless to turn a blind eye to others and their culture/background but, at least i think, the damage that causes can be totally irreversible. I also thought it was neat how you ended with the Big question & tied Delpit’s and Kittle’s standpoints together to try to answer it !!

Maddie Butkus (continuing where it cut off above^)

6/19/2020 02:20:26 pm

, and so on. While these are just my questions I came up with, I do believe they would help identify exactly what Delpit is trying to get at when it comes to identifying some basic understandings between students and teachers. It can then be said that through teachers eliminating assumptions towards students, they are able to better bring students into the world of literacy by better understanding how to teach them in ways they will understand, find interesting, and thus succeed.

Fiona Bell

6/20/2020 02:46:37 pm

I feel as though these women feel relatively the same about how we should bring students into the world of literacy. While Delpit’s focal point is on racial problems that arise through certain writing processes and Kittle focuses on the concept of teaching writing in general, I think both outlooks remain rooted in the same place. Delpit begins by explaining that in graduate school she was taught that “people learn to write not by being taught ‘skills’, but by ‘writing in meaningful contexts” and through the holistic process of writing, she was told she should be “focusing on meaning rather than form.” She eventually goes into detail, writing about how those processes didn’t work for the majority of her students- not just in her classroom, but in many- and that they benefitted more from a “traditional” approach. This technique, she said, make them pivot towards skills instead of the fluency she’d once worked so hard to establish. Kittle, on the other hand, appears to be anything but traditional. And while this is true in some aspects, she still makes it clear that in order to succeed, some level of structure needs to be involved, “Unlimited choice is no choice at all.” And while this may, without context, sound restricting- it is also important to keep in mind that she rallies for her students to “choose their strength” and tries “every day… to get a little closer to what [her] students need.” It seems as though she’s striving for both writing styles that Delpit was introduced to and is succeeding in it as well.

The last comparison that I’ll draw between the two women (because I’ve been hard-pressed to find a contrast besides Delpit addressing racism extensively and Kittle not) comes from this quote by Delpit, “Maybe, just maybe, these writing process teachers are so adamant about developing fluency because they have not really had the opportunity to realize the fluency the kids already possess.” And this can be linked directly to the two roles Kittle thinks a teacher has as a reader of student work, “to hear what the writer is communicating, to listen well, to consider and respond to the thinking in the piece; and… to help the writer communicate it with as much grace as possible … writers should be heard before they’re corrected.” Why I dig this (and why I’m drawing another link between these two ladies) is because, once again, they’re basically coming from the same place. A place embedded in acknowledging students’ capabilities and talents and, further, helping them mold (not change) what it is they’re trying to communicate into something that will help them succeed. And I think that’s pretty neat.

Ali Nolan

6/21/2020 09:45:39 am

Hello Fiona, I like that you bring up that Delpit's focal point is on racial problems. I'm glad this was an assigned reading because it opened my eyes up even more to the conversation. It's so important to listen to others, to let them express their feelings be it through writing or speaking. I also like your quote from Delpit. We can get caught up in the 'skill' of writing and lose interest. However, when we write and allow students to write about things that effect them, then they build meaning with their writing. It becomes a process that gives them a sort of power. The power of the written word. I agree that Delpit takes a more traditional approach, and I can respect it. Kittle does everything in her power to bring whatever approaches she can to help her students. Even ones she has not explored. She keeps an open mind with her students, and one thing I noticed is that she is very open about her remorse. She admits her failures and that she wants to work towards bettering herself for her students. I like that Delpit directly addresses racism, because it's important. And she's experienced it first hand. Her perspective opens our eyes because it's one thing to observe it, and another to live through it.

Ali Nolan

6/21/2020 09:40:36 am

Starting with Kittle, there were two quotes that resonated with me. The first being “I now believe you really can’t teach writing well unless you write yourself” (Kittle, 7). The second being “I don’t provide ‘answers’ in class, I provide possibilities” (Kittle, 81). I think that these two quotes apply to every field of teaching, and not just English. How are we supposed to teach if we do not practice what we teach? And answers are not the end all. The process is where the most learning occurs. Students should be given possibilities. I feel that Kittle values the connections she has with students. With this, she takes into account their background and unique situations. She gives them a place where writing will help them blossom. Kittle pushes assumptions or judgements to the side, because they are inaccurate. It’s like the whole “don’t judge a book by its cover” idea. She wants to know what makes her students tick. One student, Phillip, always sat in “the worst seat in the room… The back corner seat wedged between bookshelves and windows, it is the lead interactive place to be” (Kittle, 147). Now, I don’t speak for everyone, but I’ve seen teachers who ignore the student who sits in the back of the room--completely closed out to the rest of the world. Instead of giving that student a chance, they’re bypassed like a lost cause. Kittle doesn’t let those things define her students. Back to Kittle, she got to know who Phillip was, that he endured trauma and seizures. He was not the strongest writer, but that is okay. Kittle decided to work through his hardships by making sure she includes more video literature, video commentary, music and images (Kittle, 150). So, when I think of the ways in which Kittle brings the world of literacy to her students, she adapts. She focuses on their needs and does her best to adapt to them. What I really like about her is how open she is. She admits to her mistakes, she apologizes for not being better when she doesn’t know better. And she works towards making lessons better and more inclusive for her next students. That is dedication and openness that I can respect.

Onto Delpit, I feel that she shifts the ways in which teachers should view students. What I mean by this is breaking out of saying things like “I don’t see color, I see human”. With Delpit, she wants people to see color. We should see students for the beauty of diversity. Teachers need to recognize this diversity and bring it to lessons, projects and texts as much as possible. We are all the same, but we are also vastly different. One quote that stuck out for me with Delpit was; “Too often minority teachers’ voices have been hushed: a certain paternalism creeps into the speech of some of our liveral colleagues as they explain that our children must be “given voice”. As difficult as it is for our colleagues to hear our children’s existing voices, it is often equally difficult for them to hear our own” (Delpit, 33). I feel that this is still present to today. We need to let students (and here, teachers) speak with their own voices. Be that verbally or through writing. Sometimes it is easier to get things out on paper, but other times it’s easier to speak ideas than write them. I struggle with this. One of the things that strikes me as a difference between Kittle and Delpit, above all, is the incorporation of race. Delpit talks extensively about the hardships with minorities, and the importance of allowing them to have a voice. Kittle sees this, and understands that it is important for her to be a listener. So, she practices listening and learning from her students in order to have a better connection with them. To answer the question of how Delpit brings literacy to her students, it’s by giving them a voice. The best way for them to experience literacy is to write something they want to write about. Be it their own experiences or about themselves. Another layer of this is to be listened to. Both women have strong stances with literacy, and both are valid. Kittle wants to learn about each individual while Delpit wants to ensure they have a voice. I’m sure both women feel the same, but Delpit really takes the idea home by providing a different viewpoint for minorities.

Kaylee Tavares

6/22/2020 04:04:52 pm

Hi Ali,
I think your description of these two authors was very interesting. I agree that Kittle's strong suit seemed to be her willingness to differentiate her assignments. I think this goes hand in hand with her belief that students should learn more independently. By stating that students should be given possibilities rather than answers, she seems to be implying that students should simply be led to discover rather than instructed to learn. By the same token, by providing students with a variety of learning tools, the teacher is encouraging the student to discover which way works best for them and to continue learning about their preferred learning methods.
Additionally, I think many of Delpits' views are particularly relevant in today's culture as we navigate through the many issues plaguing our country, such as the racist culture in police work and the justice system as a whole. Though this does not directly relate to education, it is impossible to avoid the conversations regarding race when teaching in any school. I think her opinion that seeing race is important resonated with me because I have been thinking very often lately about how I will ensure that all of my students are represented in the texts I choose. I think choosing texts written by black authors emphasizes the thought that black people are just as capable and talented as white authors. They also bring different perspectives and experiences that are worth reading about and learning about. Thus, by choosing texts written by black authors, we are recognizing the differences in culture in the classroom and celebrating everyone as an individual.

Lindsay Vo

6/23/2020 11:16:44 am

Hi Ali,
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I think Mrs. Kittle is a really good teacher as well. I loved the part when you mentioned the kid who sat in the worst seat of the class. You are absolutely right! Most teachers I know don't even notice these kids and as a result, they feel like they're not part of the classroom discussion. Overall I think you did a great job!

Megan

6/23/2020 08:28:22 am

I was really moved by Delpit’s introduction and how it showed that students have a life outside of school, and how it encourages teachers to be much more mindful of the potential struggles of students. I think that it is very hard for educators to learn to be unbiased and something I have noticed over the years is that teachers often assume that students know the same things that they are expected to know. Kittle says similarly that the life of a student outside of the classroom is extremely impactful and important and it is unfair to disregard that. A lot of educators get to a point of “I wish I had known about XYZ” when instead they should have ideally been unbiased, patient, kind, and helpful from the start. So many things divide students from their teachers beyond the given power dynamic. I understand as a white female teacher, I won’t be able to instantaneously connect with and relate to every single student that walks through my door. Despite this, I know that I need to actively work to make and maintain connections with all of my students. The connection to your students regardless of race, culture, gender, and personalities is something incredibly important that often gets overlooked.

Delpit shows how black children are often thought to be more adult than they should be or only able to achieve mediocracy when they shouldn’t be (specifically, I am referring to when the adult said that three year old Charles’ actions towards his crush seemed lustful, and when Terrence’s grade of a C was deemed “really great for him”) and the problem with those thoughts are beyond just the fact that they are obviously damaging, but that they are thoughtless. Kittle’s story of a student who was not working to the expected standard shows that everyone goes through something incredibly challenging, no matter your race or identity or anything else. However, it is still important to clarify that, despite both struggling, the struggles are not the same. Every student deserves to feel individually important and worthy despite things beyond their control and every student deserves the patience of their educator when they are struggling, even if it is hard for the teacher. I want to try my best to never have a “well, I wish I had known” moment, even though I know I will still struggle.

Lindsay Vo

6/23/2020 08:43:43 am

After reading "Other People's Children" by Lisa Delpit and "Write Beside Them" by Penny Kittle, I saw some very striking similarities and differences between the two. In Delpit's article, she talks about culturally diverse environments. Unfortunately, with this comes racial stereotyping, lack of positive feedback, and implicit bias. At the beginning, Delpit talks about an African American boy named Anthony. According to Carolyn, the teacher she was observing, Anthony had some behavioral issues. But according to her observations, she says, "I have noticed that he gets almost no positive feedback during the course of a day, and instead receives a tremendous number of negative comments" (11). Along with this idea of unfair treatment comes the stereotypes that are made against people of color. According to Delpit, she got a phone call from Terrence's mother, who has struggled to put her academically talented African American son into a predominantly white private school. Apparently, Terrence's teachers were telling his mother that he was doing "fine" in school, but when report cards came out, she was shocked to find that it was filled with C's and D's. When she confronted his teachers about it, they said, "Why are you so upset? For him, C's are great. You shouldn't try to push him so much" (13). Not only is this statement racist, but it's also a very false piece of information. I believe that every student should have the opportunity to succeed, no matter what race or ethnicity they identify themselves with. Delpit said something about stereotypes that really stuck with me. She said, "We live in a society that nurtures and maintains stereotypes: we're all bombarded with the portrayal of the young Black male as a monster. When we see a group of black men, we lock our car doors, cross to the other side of the street, or clutch our handbags" (13). While this statement is devastating, it's also true. She then goes on to talk about how teachers are implicitly biased toward Black students. She says, "In my experience in predominantly Black school districts, the middle class African American teachers who don't identify with the poor African American students they teach may hold similarly damaging stereotypes. These adults probably are not bad people. They don't wish to damage children; indeed, they likely see themselves as wanting to help. Yet they are totally unable to perceive those different from themselves except through their own culturally clouded vision" (14). While Delpit raises important statements of racial injustice, Kettle mostly talks about the teaching of writing.
What I loved the most about Kettle's book was the fact that students felt comfortable enough to share their personal stories. A lot of times, students don't say what's on their mind, but when giving the opportunity to write it down, they often do. For some students, free writes are a way to address your feelings to the teacher. For example, in chapter five, one student wrote, "Every other word my stepfather says is a swear. Like 'that's fucking pisser' or 'you fucking r**ard, you're just like your fucking mother," or "your friends are little fa**ots.' I remember the time he threatened to kill my mother. 'You're lucky I don't ram a fucking knife through your eye'" (41). Although this was heartbreaking to read and then rewrite on this discussion board, sometimes student writing is a call for help. There are many other examples of this, but this one stuck out to me the most because it was so cruel. Kittle also talks about the teaching of writing, and how some students lose their passion for reading and writing. For example, her former student Patrick Haine said, "All of a sudden I was in an environment where I had hours and hours of required reading, so much homework about boring subjects that I had no time to read what I wanted to read. With this went the writing- we never had free write time anymore, I always had to try to write what the teacher wanted. Creativity was gone" (4). But Kettle is a different kind of teacher: her students are actually engaged in what she teaches and they even grow as writers. One of her biggest pieces of advice that stood out to me was, "All kids learn with patience, empathy, and good instruction. But the instruction has to come during the process of creating a piece, not on polishing the product, or nothing changes" (8). In other words, Kettle is saying that we must help our students through the process of their writing, instead of just slapping a grade onto the final piece. Although Delpit and Kettle wrote about different topics, they have one thing in common: we shouldn't judge our students by the color of their skin or the type of writing they produce because we never know what our students could be going through.

Kylie Bock

6/25/2020 07:51:24 am

Hi Lindsay!

I really liked how you mentioned the student Anthony. How do teachers and parents expect their student to enjoy school are even want to learn when all they are told is that they aren't behaving or only their negative behavior is pointed out? Both writers discuss so many issues that occur within schools that are overlooked every single day and it is so sickening to me that there are educators out there who doesn't have their students' best interests in their mind.

I also agree when you said you admired how students felt comfortable to share their personal stories and experiences with her. That is something that takes a lot of courage and trust and Kittle took the time to slowly form those relationships with her students through her teaching practices and assignments.

Kylie Bock

6/25/2020 07:39:24 am

Stereotypes and implicit biases are unfortunately seen every single day in society even within classrooms. It is a matter of someone using inaccurate information and experiences to judge or treat someone differently simply because of the color of their skin or their background. Kittle dives into this subject in a different manner than Delpit in explaining that she seeks to connect with her students on a deeper level than just the surface. She breaks down the implicit biases by actually getting to know her students and wants to know why her students behave the way they do which is something all educators should strive to follow. After her reading, I was able to connect Kittle to one of my English teachers in high school. She was one to always know at least three things about every one of her students which is a lot more than my other teachers could say. I also respect how Kittle admits there were times where she could have done more as an educator and she takes those experiences to and learns from it. Concerning writing, I really admired when Kittle said “I don’t provide ‘answers’ in class, I provide possibilities” (Kittle 81). Its important for teachers to recognize that their job is not just to give students the answers to questions or assignments, but guide them in providing their very own answers, thoughts, and opinions.

On the other hand, Delpit directly discusses how racism is and will continue to be a major issue within classrooms unless major changes are made. She doesn’t beat around the push when it comes to the subject and she says that although racism is not acceptable, recognizing color is still important. Delpit utilizes this belief to structure the way she teaches writing in her classroom and I admire how she wants students to use their voices to speak and reflect on their experiences. She is the teacher that teaches diverse or students who don’t fit the American dream stereotype to have a voice which I find to be amazing. It saddens me that her book was faced such harsh criticism. Overall, I really enjoyed these reading and honestly took away a lot.

alexa parham

6/25/2020 05:42:21 pm

hi Kylie,

I think it is so important to understand your students, as well as, connecting with them. When Kittle gets frustrated with her students, she understands that they may be coming from a different perspective or background than her. She takes the time to get to know them, which helps her reach her students, much more effectively.

She actually mentions a time where she did not understand one of her students, so she wanted to give up. She struggled to connect with this student and offer her best strategies of advice and helpfulness. Then after the year ended, she understood. She then wishes she had taken the time to give this student more patience.

This helps Kittle in her further teachings. Even if you do not know their backgrounds, you should understand that you DONT. Which means, you should be patient and understanding considering the fact that you do not understand where they are coming from. I think this is important advice for future teachers.

WEEK FOUR, POST ONE: Kittle & Delpit

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Summer 2020 ENGL 301

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