Rose, Chapters 4, 5 & 6

TORDA'S SPRING 2021 TEACHING

Rose, Chapters 4, 5 & 6

2/11/2021

For these sections of Rose, I want to connect back to what we talked about on Thursday (11 February 2021). Here, repeated for easy access, are the big takeaways I put together--and that many of you also wrote about in the last discussion board post--from the first part of Rose.

1. We profoundly misunderstand what “remedial” means—or what a deficit looks like. And, connected to this, we profoundly misunderstand the role error plays in learning--we despise error rather than cultivate it as a tool for learning in the classroom. This is true about a general public. This is true about the US historically. This is true for many of us who teach in classrooms.

2. We profoundly under-understand the role poverty plays in depriving students of a good education. It is not just a poverty that means you go to a bad school. It also means that you have nothing around you that inspires a passion in you.

3. A humane liberal education, as espoused by the McFarlands of the world is less about content as it is about the process of engagement. It is authentic reading and authentic discussion that creates the file in Rose and the other students in his classroom.

4. Inspiration does not trump academic preparation. When Rose gets to Loyola, he does not have the academic skills to manage this new landscape. This is not to be confused with intelligence. And this is related to what I want to say next:

5. We have profoundly useless measurements of whether a student is a thoughtful, capable thinker (not intelligent—a totally different thing and not just a good student; you can be absolutely a dumbo and do well in school).

6. Students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success. This connects to many things that we are seeing here. Poverty of home life and educational

7. Access—who gets to go to the good school; who gets internet; who gets to be in a pod; who has someone who is not a working parent able to help them with their work; who has art, music, gym, recess; who has computers (at home and in school).

8. Teaching is a powerful thing.

9. Educating in a democracy is hard and joyous at the same time

WHAT TO POST: Select one or two of the above points and identify places in these chapters that add too, develop, restate, grow the idea. Roughly 200-300 words.

RESPONSE REQUIREMENT: Read your colleague's responses and select one person who wrote about one of the nine things on the list above that YOU DIDN'T write about. Then identify another place in the text that you see as related to their point in some way. Roughly 100 words.

37 Comments

Angel Walsh

2/15/2021 09:11:38 am

When reading Mike Rose’s chapters in LOTB one thing really hit me. The fact that students are the ones to blame for their lack of success, when in this case, there are other factors that play into it. This can be seen and felt in chapter 5, when Mike Rose was part of Teaching Corps, and witnessed firsthand both of these things. Mike Rose’s first group of students, Lupe and David are the ones that stood out the most. Mike begins to realize that the school system and that the teachers are also beyond the lack of success of these students. After doing an assignment with these students Mike Rose writes; “(talking of Lupe) she was an obese girl who had been plagued by a series of thyroid and tonsil problems, and a second-grade teacher mistook her lethargy and reserve for a sign of intellectual defect” (Rose, 101). Instead of reading her file, or asking parents, the teacher wrote her off as a student who had a intellectual defect, and never got her the help she needed. When speaking of David, Rose writes, “He was so withdrawn that his fourth-grade teacher had feared him and had speculated that his silence might indicate childhood schizophrenia” (Rose, 101). Another case where the teacher wrote a student off before they could even begin to blossom academically. While I am not saying that the teacher is 100% to blame, I think that it our job to help those before we write them off. The school system that Mike Rose worked at is also to blame. They could have done things to help these students, added extra help, realized that maybe their home life was to blame and that they felt unsafe. Mike Rose writes about the school system and how they worked. He writes, “The school could have intervened but instead it seemed to misperceive them and place them on the margin” (Rose, 101). Many kids face things at home, and they are not the sole reason they are failing in things. Yet, the school system and the teachers (in this scenario) seemed to write them off as having defects. If you ask me, the school system is the one to blame for the children not succeeding. A child does not understand fully how to handle all of the things that life throws at them. They are trying to manage things beyond their control. When a school fails to see that and instead places a child on a margin or writes them off completely, we need to start also pointing fingers at that school system as the reason students are having lack of success in their lives. Mike Rose does an excellent job of exposing this, and knows that it is not right and does everything he possibly can to make sure those that he taught succeed.

Olivia Halpin

2/15/2021 03:43:09 pm

Hi Angel! Another area in LOTB that Rose discusses students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success and that there is a connection between poverty, the home life, and education is seen in the story of Harold. Rose studied Harold’s file of assessments and came to the conclusion that the work Harold had been producing in Rose’s pull-out time with the school’s “poorest” readers never could have been predicted. Rose went to visit Harold’s mother Mrs. Morton and then had a better understanding of Harold’s home life which deeply affected Harold’s academics. Harold's father had walked out when he was five years old and his mother Mrs. Morton has declining health. Eventually Rose realizes the “problem is psychological” and Harold is struggling with extreme loneliness which is impacting his growth in school. Rose sums it up by bluntly saying, “Harold was made stupid by his longing, and his folder full of tests could never reveal that” (p.127). This account of Harold’s struggle and progress in his reading/writing was extremely touching as there are countless students who face similar situations in today's classrooms.

Vanessa Semeraro

2/15/2021 11:50:19 am

Poverty has been commonly noticed as one of the factors certain children do not perform well at school, or to the best of their abilities. It plays a big, if not the biggest role when forming a child’s academic success or journey to completing a higher level of education with a decent grading system. It is not solely poverties fault that some children do not perform well at school, whereas it relates to the specific family. In the book Lives on The Boundary, we, the reader, see several sides to this journey and understanding. On one hand, in chapter five, it discusses how many people in El Monte are upper middle class, but a higher percentage in the city are those in poverty living conditions. In this type of location, they do not want to see these children of our future’s fail, so in order to prevent that, they form groups, meetings, a board of Education style of teacher trainings. These people meet with the children’s families and those who care for their children outside of the classroom setting. They set up their times, efforts and lives in the Teacher Corps, got to know their surroundings and aimed to help those who need it. Yes, many in poverty suffer in the educational fields, but there are some towns that take those in poverty, understand the importance of removing them from this life forever, and educate them to further their academic and educational success.

Catie Mullen

2/15/2021 05:19:44 pm

Vanessa, I noticed this in Lives on the Boundary as well. Poverty was brought up multiple times and how Mike Rose experienced the effects poverty has on education firsthand when in El Monte. I also agree with you Vanessa. There are some educators who have the ability to remove students from that life forever. If they can't though, that's when educators need to step up and not only be a teacher, but a friend/companion. I think something to think about is that there is a possibility that because they are living in poverty, their home life is effected as well. This can then effect student's studies. It said in the book that, "But I began to wonder what images they were creating for themselves as they came to know that their physical being was so vulnerable, that whatever beauty they bore could be dismissed by the culture or destroyed on the street. The schools could have intervened but instead seemed to misperceive them and place them on the margin" (101). That is where it gets hard because a school system that is in a town where poverty lies, educators may not care or try which is sad. Everyone deserves the same education and an amazing education. As future teachers, we are teaching the students who are our futures.

Olivia Halpin

2/15/2021 03:26:04 pm

“Teaching is a powerful thing” is a point that came up clearly throughout Chapters 4,5, and 6 of Mike Rose’s “Lives On the Boundary.” One specific example of this is on page 159 when Rose describes “The majesty of small progress.” I love this quotation because it summarizes the power of hope in education. A little bit of growth or progress can give a student the courage to keep pushing through and learning when they feel like quitting. The context of this quote was about improvement of the student Arthur that Rose taught in the Teachers Corps. Arthur was a student diagnosed as having paranoid schizophrenia. Rose worked consistently with him and described how his “critical skills were good and got better.” Arthur was able to move out of his isolation through the teaching of Rose and other educators. Teaching truly is a powerful thing that can move a life from stagnation to growth! Another example of this is when Rose’s student Olga finally finishes Shakespeare after kicking and screaming throughout the whole process of reading the book. Olga described feeling empowered by having read Shakespeare even though she did not enjoy reading it.
Another point highlighted by “Liives on the Boundary'' is that “A humane liberal education, as espoused by the McFarlands of the world is less about content as it is about the process of engagement. It is authentic reading and authentic discussion that creates the file in Rose and the other students in his classroom.” On quote that stood out to me about Rose’s approach to education in the Veterans Program (that was very effective for him) states, “My students needed to be immersed in talking, reading, writing, they needed to further develop their abilities to think critically, and they needed to gain confidence in themselves as systematic inquirers” (141). Rose engaged all of his students fully and to the best of his ability. Rose describes his work in education (specifically the Veterans Program) as one that “fused mind and world” (155). Rose was not just teaching pure content, he was teaching skills like critical thinking that his students would take with them far beyond the classroom. His teaching techniques and strategies involved engaging the whole student with his curriculum by immersing them with reading, writing, summarizing, classifying, comparing, and analyzing.

Rachael Sweeney

2/15/2021 04:57:39 pm

Hi Olivia! I also really loved the majesty of small progress quote. I agree that it summarizes the hope that we need to have as future teachers. I loved how committed Rose was to helping this poor student and how happy it made him to see his progress. I am sure he was proud of himself as well and glad he had someone on his side. I can also relate to Olga kicking and screaming throughout Shakespeare and how she felt empowered when she finished (lol.) I also liked how you pointed out the teaching techniques and strategies and the immersive learning strategies to gain confidence and I look forward to using them in the classroom :)

Djenifer Goncalves

2/15/2021 08:09:11 pm

Hi Olivia, I really loved what you had to say about the process quote. Another example of “Teaching is a powerful thing” comes from never giving up on students. While I was reading chapter 5, Rosalie suggested that Rose started working directly with the students. At first, he was scared, he even doubted himself. “What if the kids didn’t listen to me? I thought. What if, after all, I couldn’t help them” (95). It’s amazing to me how helpful he was to them. He built a connection with these students. Joey, Casey, Dora were known for their poor grammar and writing skills. However, Rose found a way to use pictures and magazines to engage these students into wanting to learn. It is shown here that with time and dedication, teachers can truly make a difference.

Rachael Sweeney

2/15/2021 04:29:38 pm

I really enjoyed reading about the teaching corps in chapter 5 because I have always dreamed of doing something like that. I also really enjoyed the connection in this chapter of how we as a society can make assumptions off of people’s success (or lack of) and be completely wrong. Health troubles, trouble at home, and poverty are huge examples of why some students have an unfair setback in their education and I know that children carry a lot of that burden to school with them and be deemed as lazy or unmotivated. It broke my heart to read about the students that had real life issues at such a young age and to see their teachers assume the worst instead of investigating further and showing that they truly care about their students. It is our duty as teachers to help our students to the best of our ability and show that we care because we (sadly) may be the only ones that can be their ally if they have a rough home life. I really enjoy how these chapters give us multiple perspectives on empathy and understanding students and how it is sadly human nature to have some sort of biases that need to be fought against with that same empathy.

Danielle Delaroca

2/15/2021 06:15:50 pm

Rachael, I think it's great you have considered doing something like Rose did with teaching corp. I really like how you said that it is our duty as teachers to help our students and show them we care and overall, be their ally because we really do not see everything that goes on behind closed doors. So we really don't know who, if anyone, is rooting for them and supportive of them and what them and/or family is experiencing. Chapter 5 was a powerful one for sure. It was heartbreaking but I am glad it could open our eyes up to some real students real life issues and their setbacks with education and just the god awful ways they were treated by some of their teachers. It makes me hopeful though that since we have read about these harsh realities, we will all become much better, understanding, and fair teachers. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Catie Mullen

2/15/2021 05:02:19 pm

One of the points that I wanted to discuss more that was brought up in the book Lives on the Boundary, is how "we have profoundly useless measurements of whether a student is a thoughtful, capable thinker." Mike Rose touches upon this several times in chapters four, five, and six. The reason I wanted to discuss this point is because after reading the "Why Johnny Can't Write" articles, it got me thinking about why standardized tests matter so much. Why do grammar workbooks matter so much and why do we spend years learning that material? Some standardized tests are harder than others. Personally, I know and feel like the creators of standardized tests want you to fail; they put tricks in there that mess everyone up. Mike Rose said, "And so these children would fail at the kind of literacy activities the school system had woven throughout its curriculum and turn off to writing and reading in general. But that did not mean that they were illiterate" (110). I completely agree with Rose. When a student continuously fails tests, it brings their confidence down and they may not put in as much effort. Also, some people can't handle taking tests. The way that school systems handle measuring a thoughtful and capable thinker needs to be adjusted, so it applies to everyone and is fair.

This next point follows the last one. We misunderstand what remedial means and the role error plays in learning. In order to learn, you sometimes need to learn from your mistakes, and that’s okay. I think in the school systems nowadays, they expect you to be right every time. While reading about Mike Rose's story and the effect he had on the veterans, it really amazed me. Many of them weren't even remotely close to where they should've been regarding academics. In that case, they would fail, but with the support of Mike Rose these students ended up growing intellectually in his class. Mike said that, "My students needed to be immersed in talking, reading, and writing, they needed to further develop their ability to think critically, and they needed to gain confidence in themselves as systematic inquires" (141). Learning is a process and some things you aren't going to get right first try and I think it's important for educators to normalize that and not necessarily praise just the students who got 100's, praise the students who showed true progression and effort.

Sara McNaughton

2/16/2021 05:15:08 am

Hi Catie,

I wanted to expand upon your point about how we misunderstand what remedial means and the role error plays in learning. Just as you mentioned, making mistakes is a crucial part of the learning process for students. Furthermore, the same can be said for educators. Rose reflected on his own teaching, stating, "my curriculum was clearly not kicking these children's development fast forward. It had to be eliciting and shaping something that was already there" (Rose 110). I think Rose's reflection furthers your point. Teachers will not always get it right on the first try. It is important that teachers can recognize that and readjust plans accordingly.

Stasia Wing

2/16/2021 05:19:09 am

Hey Catie! I totally agree with you about the standardized test. I personally am I terrible test taker myself and I can completely relate to where you said that you feel like you are wanted to fail. I also think the quote you pulled out was a great representation in that although some students may have a harder time they are not stupid (even though after taking large tests like MCAS or the SATs may make us feel otherwise. Right after that line on page 110 Rose also writes "Given that cognitive growth does not proceed in miraculous leaps, my curriculum was clearly not kicking these children's development into fast-forward." This sentence really had me thinking about when I was a student in middle school and high school. I remember having certain teachers who would spend months on trying to prepare us for MCAS, and those years I would do pretty well on the test, but I also had teachers that would try to cram it all in in two weeks and I suffered the consequences of that. Even though at the time I didn't realize that it truly could have been my teacher's fault I would put all blame on myself and my "smartness."

Danielle Delaroca

2/15/2021 06:05:12 pm

Rose’s experience at Northern El Monte furthers the idea that teaching is a powerful thing. This was a school that had a high percentage of working-class whites and poor Mexican Americans and Mexican nationals. There was a student believed to be bad at math so he was placed into the “dumb” math group. The work was too easy for him though so he was moved to the “smart” kids group. This was brought on because a teacher named Mr. Wilson who, in Rose’s words, “treated his fifth-graders like a cohort of mechanical clerks.” (92). He treated his “good” students more superior to the rest, than the “bad” students had no interest. This exemplifies how teaching is a powerful thing in a more negative fashion because since he treated the students as mechanical clerks, they had no interest in was happening in the class and there were students who were put into categories- smart or dumb. Which is not a way to go about teaching. However, Rose had the opportunity to take over a classroom there and he was told to do something nice for the students since their lives were pretty dreary (93). This class was full of poor readers and writers (by the school’s standards) and students with low IQ’s. I enjoyed the part when he had to reiterate the first writing assignment would not be graded to ease them, that was the case for most of us in this class before we took the grammar test. And how he stopped grading students in general as time went on. I loved reading the students hilarious stories they wrote and the things they would say to him. They grew comfortable with him and there was a mutual respect between the students and Rose. His journey was by no means easy but he did not give up on them. This captures why teaching is a powerful thing. He learned from them valuable lessons. They needed the right teacher. One to understand them and encourage them and see potential and not base them off of their IQ or their predetermined reading and writing abilities, both of which are not always accurately assessed. And as he says “teaching is a kind of romance.” Both his young students and his old and veteran students struggled and had such a fear of failure but that is because of this flawed educational system and the way we are all evaluated. I really like how he called testing elitist because I see that now. It really is a system that puts poor families/students at a HUGE disadvantage for being labeled as “below average” and we should not want to carry out a system that has students wishing to just be average. It’s sad.

Angel Walsh

2/15/2021 07:23:31 pm

Hi Danielle,
Your first idea that teaching is a powerful thing is spot on! I think that Mike Rose really nailed it with chapter 5. He took kids that were pretty much written off and worked with them daily. Mike Rose had a lot of faith in the students and he made sure to show it. While it may not seem like much another part that shows this is after the first meeting. Mike Rose came into the cafeteria to begin setting up when he noticed it, “The real kick cam when I walked through the cafeteria a few days after our lesson and saw two of my students showing their posted essays to a third child who was not in our group” (rose, 96). Because of Mike Rose and the effort and commitment he showed the children they felt comfortable showing others their work, something they have probably never done. It just shows how powerful teaching can be to a group of students who were deemed as unsuccessful.

Patricia Diaz

2/15/2021 07:13:40 pm

Out of all of the points above, the one that caught my attention is number five, which talks about how the US has useless measurements to test whether a student is thoughtful. One thing that came to my mind that relates to this point is standardized tests and how they are used to test whether the students are intelligent. I know that Rose was expressing in his book how even though their test scores revealed “deficiency” in either reading or writing, the kids he tutored in El Monte demonstrated otherwise. They showed him that they were illiterate; that they were able to exceed expectations if imagination was incited and a curriculum focus only on grammar was not used. I think that standardized tests do not reveal how much the students know or what they are capable of mastering. This is shown with Harold on page 121 whose tests showed he would perform terrific in reading, but once he started doing it in class, he proved teachers otherwise. Not every student can perform well in these tests. This is not due to fact that they do not know the content, though it could be a possibility, it could also do with the fact that they just do not work well under pressure or do not know the tricks to get around it. This is why it is not fair to classify students who do not perform well in these tests as unintelligent. Even if they did not the content, with the right guidance, these students could foster the skills that they are lacking without having to be deeded as irremediable and being forgotten by the school system.

Andrew Mortarelli

2/15/2021 08:27:22 pm

Hi Patricia,
A lot of what you had to say could be argued for point number 6: "Students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success. This connects to many things that we are seeing here. Poverty of home life and educational." Standardized tests are like you said, no way of evaluating a student, and students being neglected for not preforming well in school is not the fault of the student. When standardized tests approach, the students will actually try to preform well. You could even argue that the teachers aren't at fault because most of the time they are being given the direction for how to teach the practices for the tests.

Patricia Diaz (Reply to Danielle's Post)

2/15/2021 07:37:17 pm

Danielle,
Another idea that was mentioned in the book regarding something nice that Rose did for his students was his writing exercises. He mentioned in chapter five how his curriculum was different from the one the school used. While the curriculum was focused more on grammar, he focused more on “conveying something meaningful, communicating information…playing with the sounds of words” (Rose, 109). I think that this was probably one of the first times these kids’ creativity and imagination were encouraged to be used in writing. It’s noticeable how there was a lack of these elements and Rose’s realization served as a means to encourage his students to shift their focus in a different place; to do better in writing itself.

Djenifer Goncalves

2/15/2021 07:51:34 pm

When I was reading “Lives on Boundaries,” specifically chapter 5, I noticed the way Rose talked about Hicks Camp, El Monte, Maravilla, and the schools surrounded that area. He talked about visiting the neighborhood, and noticing how poor they were. “Students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success. This connects to many things that we are seeing here. Poverty of home life and education.” There are a lot of times in which poverty plays a significant role in a child’s future. It can be used as motivation to want to do better in life, to want to help your parents out of the projects. The way Rose describes these kids having so much fun brought back so many memories I had as a child in Cape Verde. “Kids were playing baseball and tag and war on the dirt and brown grass.” (87). No wonder this project is called “The marvelous place.” These kids seemed genuinely happy. Rose tells us that El Monte was a city that was trying to do its best. Schools weren’t very resourceful, but they do what they can to help students. Rose states, “From what I could tell, the teachers spent a good deal of time considering their students’ needs and abilities” (92). This one kid, Carlos, stood out to me. Rose joined Teacher Crops to educate/ help students that needed assistance as part of his internship. During this time, he met Carlos, a young boy who loves his Saab. Carlos kept a notebook with him, where he would sketch the parts of the car he needed from the manual, then he would go to the junkyard to find these parts. Unfortunately, kids like Carlos don’t have computers, tablets, phones to help them navigate. They have to find a way to make things work. Poverty tends to make a lot of students drop out of school to help their parents with the bills, but this not always the case. Students aren’t always at fault for this lack of success, but also teachers. Rose explained how Mr. Wilson was full of himself and would only let the best students read aloud. The other students were left wandering and doodling. Teachers should focus on every student, and not just the ones that are already great in what they do.

Courtney Beale

2/15/2021 09:18:06 pm

Hi Djenifer!

Poverties’ role in access to an adequate education is a huge problem in urban areas. We see this play out before our eyes multiple times in this book. As I read through chapter 5, one specific quote was the most memorable to me. This is an interaction that takes place between Rose and Rosalie. When Rosalie gives Rose the opportunity to work closely with students, he reluctantly declines because he doesn't think he is ready. Rosalie then says, "You're closer to them than I am" (Rose 93). Here, Rosalie is making the connection between Rose's childhood within a poverty-stricken community, and the students who are experiencing the same misfortune and mistreatment.

John Cronin

2/15/2021 09:28:36 pm

HI Djenifer, I wanted to expand on your first point of how poverty has a role to play when it comes to children's education. In chapter 5 Rose talks about the area surrounding the El Monte elementary school, "Shops and small industries had built up around the schools, causing poor neighborhoods to slide even further." (pg 90) Here Rose briefly talks about the commuting problem children have to face in order to attend school. When these poor neighborhoods get pushed further away from the school it can create problems for not just the kid living far away but the entire family as well. These students commute's to school will continue to get longer and more complicated. If they live somewhere that they can't rely on a school bus or their family doesn't own a car it would mean walking all the way to school. Possibly by themselves which at such a young age could present some danger.
By surrounding the school with small shops the community is creating yet another hurdle for poor students to overcome.

Courtney Beale

2/15/2021 09:04:28 pm

After reading through the next 3 chapters of this book, I found myself pulling out specific instances that fell in line with point 5, which explains that the United States has developed a completely useless system of how we measure the mental and thinking capabilities of our students. This system puts children in little categories, early enough to diminish their self-esteem and self-image. If children don’t meet a specific benchmark on the multiple standardized tests that they are given, they are deemed incapable and are placed in classes that are made to do anything but help them succeed. In the book, we see this the most in chapter 5 when Rose shares his experiences when working with the group of 15 students that were considered the most “at-risk” when it came to their reading and writing. After gaining the students’ trust and learning more about their personal lives, Rose was able to adapt his lessons to make them the most meaningful for his students. After assessing the students writing abilities, he was particularly blown away by the composition made by Mark, a student with an IQ of 62, which at the time, deemed him as retarded. Despite this assessment of his mental capabilities, he was able to string together words that not only made sense together but also connected to the picture he based it off of. Rose explains that “The essays that many of the students were producing, flawed as they were, were not jibbing with the various assessments of their ability that I had heard and read” (Rose 109). Rose then poses the question that if this is the case, then “What was the nature of the curriculum and the assessments that provide the base for this definition?” (Rose 109). Our society has based the learning of our students in the hands of standardized testing. The realization must lie in the fact that our students are brighter and capable of more than people think.

Vanessa Semeraro

2/16/2021 06:59:11 am

Hi Courtney,
I enjoyed how you worded it as 'putting children in categories'. That description perfectly describes how children would feel in certain educational situations. By feeling off on an assignment, or lesser than other students, they are categorized as 'lesser'.

John Cronin

2/15/2021 09:11:16 pm

In chapter 4 Rose expands on the idea of not being prepared for certain academic challenges in college. He begins to compare himself with the other students attending UCLA. Most of them already know another language while he does not. This begins to worry Rose as he continued into his first semester. This line of insecure thinking was furthered when another student questioned his interpretation of a poem in front of the class. It can be seen from his thoughts during this time that instead of devoting himself completely to school, he would question if he had what it took be there among the other students. He summarizes his feelings about all of this in one line, “It became clear to me that the production of knowledge in graduate programs like this was more than a calling, it was a contentious enterprise.” (pg. 71) Rose is trying to emphasize the competitiveness within the master's degree field. Everyone there is attempting to do their best in pursuit of their own hopes and dreams but that doesn’t matter when compared to each student’s academic ability.

In chapter Five, Rose remembers a time when he was shooting hoops with a boy from the school in EL Monte. The boy stated that he “used to be in the dumb math’s group, but then, um, my teacher found out it was too easy for me. So now I am in with the smart kids.” (pg. 91) This highlights point number five, (We have profoundly useless measurements of whether a student is a thoughtful, capable thinker.) The only sign that the teachers needed to put him into a higher course level was that he did well in his classes. There needs to be better methods of figuring out how to help a child flourish in school than just doing well in the “dumb classes”. I think the main point that Rose is trying to point out in this exchange is how the children know about the class division purposes. I can relate this to my own experiences during middle school. The school gave each class a color name that we were told just separated them for organizational purposes. After a few classes though I was able to figure out what the system was for. A major problem that I notice looking back was how I wasn’t motivated to get into the “smarter” classes. When I realized I was in the “dumber” classes it made things seem more pointless for me, much like how Rose felt in chapters 1-2.

Sara McNaughton

2/16/2021 05:04:35 am

In chapter five, Rose alludes to the fact that students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success. When talking about one of his students, Rose says, “She was an obese girl who had been plagued by a series of thyroid and tonsil problems, and a second-grade teacher mistook her lethargy and reserve as a sign of intellectual defect” (Rose 101). This student, Lupe, had been misdiagnosed with an intellectual disability and was now receiving special education. This is not to say that this is completely the second-grade teacher’s fault, rather, it is the mistake of everyone involved in her misdiagnoses and treatment at school. A common theme that I noticed in this chapter is that Rose saw his students (from the teacher core program) for their potential. Unlike some teachers, he did not want to simply confine his students to the labels that others had put on them. This part of chapter five accentuates the facts that mislabeling a student with a disability or labeling them as “troubled” can eliminate opportunities for them. It takes us as educators to see opportunity and success where other people have not. It is not just a student’s bad home life that affects their performance. Rather, academic performance is affected by the negative labels put on students.
Later in the chapter, Rose shows the negative effect that negative labels have on his students, stating, “My students knew they were considered poor readers” (Rose 105). This negative mindset led his students to believe that they were not able to perform at a higher level. I think it is easy to blame the student and say that it is their fault for their lack of success, however, I do not believe that to be true. Rose worked out creative solutions that were meant to help his students succeed. Once we stop viewing our students with a deficit mindset, they will stop thinking like that too.

Cedes

2/16/2021 06:41:31 am

Sara!!!! Lupe broke my freaking heart! OMG. All of my mothers daughters have some sort of reproductive sickness that greatly drains energy and causes a lot of pain, and growing up my sisters would have a hard time sometimes and teachers would make them feel bad about themselves or assume they were lying or being lazy. Rose was carefully aware of all of these little things that can be missed by teachers, but that could change the direction of students' learning experience. His focus on making sure to change the negative mindsets that led his students to believing that they aren't good enough or smart enough is what I hope I can bring into my future classroom!

Stasia Wing

2/16/2021 05:09:09 am

While reading Lives On the Boundary, and going over the points we talked about from last class, the two points that stood out to me the most were the ones that were directed towards poverty. As a kid I didn’t really grow up in a low income area, even though my family itself didn’t have a lot of money. My school system was fortunate to give us the best that they could, but after reading specific examples in LOTB I got a much better understanding of what it is like for students who are not as fortunate. Funding for schools is super important in order to have all materials to teach students. There are so many different kinds of learners in a student body and for some schools it is hard to gather resources for every student. On page 98 there was a conversation between Mike and Lillian that really caught my eye. His students were taking standardized tests and Mike says “I mean here is this test, and it’s gonna go into your file, and it’s gonna follow you around, and- it just didn’t mean anything to them,” and “I mean the point is that these tests will be cited when people talk about the low IQ of minority kids and all that bullshit” (98). This connects back to our point that the students who deal with poverty in their home lives and school lives have more of a lack of motivation and passion to get things done. Going on to page 100 a line that stood out a lot to me was one that his student Lupe had written: “Everyday people are black, red, yellow, and white--and we have to live together. No matter where you go, you will find people, for God put all kinds of people around.” This line just really puts into perspective that there are all kinds of students from different home lives that come into schools and that they all deserve the same treatment and resources as anyone else. There are many factors that prove that a student is not the only one responsible for their “lack of success” but that as educators we should do our best and really try to go the extra mile for our students, and be there for them, because they may be struggling with other things, like poverty at home that we can not control.

Cedes

2/16/2021 06:32:01 am

Hi Stasia! I also wrote about students' lack of success in education not being "their fault". In my high school, teachers used photocopied versions of the books because we didn't have physical copies. I am talking entire collections were held together by staples and paper clips. Most of us lost interest because it felt like no one cared enough to get us good books. You take students that are not motivated in the classroom and expect them to care about their scores on standardized testing??? Make it make sense! Most of us were good kids, we just need resources and teachers who gave a damn!

Rowan Kelley

2/16/2021 06:47:50 am

Hi Stasia,
I really enjoyed you bringing the motivation aspect to your response. I also noticed some points on page 98, although mine were on a different topic and how IQ tests only measure how well students actually want to try. Personally, I recall a time going to take an MCAS test, and I was having one of the worst days ever, and I just refused to answer a single question. It wasn't because I couldn't do it, I just didn't want to, but it led to my school labeling me as a failure. Also to do with motivation, I noticed on page 76 when Rose is talking with some of his graduate friends about how their teachers don't give a shit if they like the reading provided. I know that not everything can be interesting for every student, but I want to ensure that none of my future students ever resent or feel like I'm not thinking of them when I'm planning lessons and resources.

Megan Canterbury

2/16/2021 05:30:04 am

I really enjoyed reading chapters 5 and 6. Rose’s personal experiences really shape how he views and approaches education. Relating to what we’ve been discussing in class, Rose says that writing is only partly about “grammatical correctness” and grammar is “certainly not the force that brings pen to paper” (142). Just as Rose himself got forgotten in the vocational school system, he spends a good deal talking about his student Harold, who was lost in the system, too. One report that “pretty convincingly defined Harold as a marginal child” … “might have been necessary to get action” (122), but it allows Harold to start falling through the cracks, despite his above average reading level early in his life. He connects his experience with that of the students he worked with as well as the veterans finding a common thread. The “remedial” label these individuals carry with them creates an internalized lack of confidence; “the diminished sense of what you can be continues to shape your identity. You live with decayed images of the possible” (105). Rose agues that the systems in place to help these students just aren’t working. His year studying psychology, especially humanistic psychology led him to believe that these students need individualized, hands-on approaches to education. He realizes “the remarkable complexity of human action and the difficulty of attributing causality to any one condition or event,” (80) and he brings his new understandings into the classroom to help him better reach those forgotten students.
In these chapters he also discusses how the “education gap” is influenced by things outside of students' natural born abilities. Race, poverty, home life, and other things influence what a student can achieve on their own and Rose notices it is the educator’s responsibility to learn everything about a student in order to create the best individualized approach to their education.

Rowan Kelley

2/16/2021 06:25:40 am

Widely considered to be an implication of a student’s educational journey, a student’s access to internet, good schools, recreational activities, and parental guidance are usually considered vital to succeed. Unfortunately, a lot of student in the past and present do not and did not have access to these resources. What Rose brings up, and what must be considered, is how one poor slice of a country is not another on page 88. Yes, there are things that educators can do to aid students, but one must understand that one poor student is never going to be the same as another poor student. Each situation and student are unique, and adjustments must be made to accommodate them. For example, I really like when Rose gave his students the option to pick images from a magazine and write on them, as it allows students to shine when they can feel in control of their options. Just as important, the education system seems to misunderstand what “remedial” means or what a deficit looks like. On page 101, Rose writes, “The schools could have intervened but instead seemed to misperceive them and place them on the margin.” As someone who struggles with mental health, I know there can be so many reasons for being withdrawn in a class, and schools can often confuse that for an inability to understand. Furthermore, on page 98, Rose comments on how IQ tests only measure how well students actually want to play the game, which I hadn’t considered in that context before. Students coming from broken families, for example, might experience stress before standardized testing which results in low scores which can influence schools to label that student with a deficit.

Cedes

2/16/2021 06:26:01 am

Rose made the point that reading poetry is hard. I am a nationally ranked spoken word poet and I think reading poetry is THE WORST. Most of the times I cannot really understand what is being said and I can't really understand why I am supposed to read it... but Rose encounters a class where he learns to read poetry in a different way, and to me this highlights point number 3. It was not about the poetry itself but it was about how the professor used the poetry to engage the students so that they could learn the material in a new way and from a fresh perspective. Rose stated that, "I had learned to read poems carefully from Frank Carothers and Father Albertson. But this was different... It was different because the unstated agenda was that we should come up with an original interpretation, argue that what seems fairly simple is really complex, that traditional readings miss the point, and that yet another reading is possible" (71). I am fascinated by this technique and I really want to try it! I think that it would help me to learn vocabulary better and also help me to think of all the different possibilities for interpreting art, while learning how to better and more carefully do close readings of poems. In class we spoke about how the student usually gets blamed and labeled as incapable when they don't do well in school, but this isn't for a lack of trying. Rose was actively doing all he could to learn and be a better student. One of the tactics he used, I still use to this day! I keep a list of all the words I don't know when I am reading, and I look them up learn their meanings. In the book Rose had a whole list of words that he had recorded in an attempt to broaden his vocabulary, and so he could be a better reader by increasing his understanding of the use of language. Out of his list I added words like beguile, lassitude and skein to my list. He also uses words in his writing that I have had to stop and look up like supparation or venal. This shows that Rose is doing what he knows how to try and be successful, and illustrates two things: 1.) teaching is a powerful tool, and 2.) it's not always right to blame a student for their lack of success in the classroom. When great teachers help their students find tools to help assist in the learning process, students carry these tools for life. Even if Rose wasn't a student, this is a great way to gain understanding in many areas of life. Such dedication to learning shows that Rose is doing all he can to make it far, so when there are bumps in the road no one should assume it's due to a lack of trying on his part, and that goes for all of our students!

Maria Pestilli

2/17/2021 02:03:25 pm

Hi Cedes!
You know what is interesting to me. The idea of writing down words you don’t know when reading that both you and Rose mention is something my fiancée has been doing for as long as I have known her. Until I read this book I thought it was just a quirk of hers but now that I have read more about the subject and have read what you wrote I now see how important of a tool it is. Writing down words you don’t know not only helps you learn about the word’s existence, but it also helps you create a familiarity towards it. After reading all this I think that I will also start to write down words I don’t know so that I can widen my vocabulary which is not as vast as it could be I’m afraid. Good work on the post though!

-Maria

2/21/2021 02:17:34 pm

Cedes and Maria-- There is a book you guys should read. It's a kid's book. It's called "The Word Collector." It's magical.

Andrew Mortarelli

2/16/2021 06:40:46 am

Students are not the only people at fault for their lack of success. This connects to many things that we are seeing here. Poverty of home life and educational. This stood out to me because of the accuracy I see within it. On page 121 it goes into the teacher needing help to educate one of her students. This is what we need more of. We prep students for standardized tests and when they get results that aren't great, the students are blamed. The quote from page 98, "We will get to the point that these tests will be cited when people talk about the low IQ of minority kids and all that bullshit” (98). The students can't be blamed for this, and neither can the teachers. When it comes to standardized tests, the students actually prepare. A lot of classes grade on participation and effort, where these tests grade 100% on the results. When I was in 7th grade, I preformed terribly on the MCAS, and I had really tried for it. My mom was so angry about how I scored she called my English teacher to find out what happened, and the teacher told her not to worry, and that if someones having an off day, it can completely ruin their performance. I've kept that in the back of my mind ever since, and hope that standardized tests will not effect students in negative ways going forward.

Maria Pestilli

2/17/2021 01:58:36 pm

There are many good points about the world of teaching to be made when looking at Rose’s works. One I would like to highlight is number 5. Number 5 states, “We have profoundly useless measurements of whether a student is a thoughtful, capable thinker (not intelligent—a totally different thing and not just a good student; you can be absolutely a dumbo and do well in school)”. I believe this to be true and it is something I bring up a lot when talking about teaching in the classroom. There are many ways to be smart and just because you struggle in certain areas does not mean you are not smart, “children would fail at the kind of literacy activities the school system had woven throughout its curriculum and turn off to writing and reading in general. But that did not mean that they were illiterate" (Rose 110). I 100% agree with what Rose is saying here. Just because a student is not good at close reading or any sort of reading assignment does not mean they cannot read. A student who has a hard time writing is not incapable of writing. I believe that all students have the ability to succeed, but they will not if the system is working against them. The other point I want to highlight is number 2 which states, “We profoundly under-understand the role poverty plays in depriving students of a good education. It is not just a poverty that means you go to a bad school. It also means that you have nothing around you that inspires a passion in you”. Poverty is what causes many students to not get the proper education. If an area is poor, then more often than not the education system also suffers. Rose does cover this idea in chapters 4 through 6 but it is more sprinkled in. I think that number five comes across much stronger than number 2 but I think number 2 is just as important as number 5 when it comes to education.

Sydney Silverman

2/19/2021 05:31:42 pm

My comment is mostly aimed towards subject 4, where inspiration plays the most prominent role. I do very much believe in this because I feel that teachers have a bigger job than to just educate young minds. Students minds are like gardens that need nourishment ans support, and while we should be feeding them knowledge, we must be supporting them and inspiring them to follow their passions. If students felt emotionally supported better in schools, than their performances academically would definitely change as well. I think this was Roses's case while dealing with Loyola. I don't think Roses lack of academic skills had anything to do with lack of intelligence, but simply lack of inspiration and motivation. I find this example from Mike Rose's story to be one of the most relatable scenarios aside from the subject of fear of failure. Inspiration allows young, students minds to pursue their passions as well as perform better in school.

Marie-Elizabeth Sholes

3/2/2021 06:46:32 pm

Chapters four, five and six start building on the idea of how powerful teaching is and the teachers themselves right off the bat, with Rose talking about his relationship with his professors, the impact they had on him and the ways in which they influenced him. at one point near the start of chapter four talking about something on of his professors showed him that brought a new interest to him, "Mr. Johnson had introduced me to Maslow's Toward a psychology of being, and since that time psychology had tugged on my thoughts" (Rose 77). There is so much to be said for the incredible power that can be held by a teacher, they notice things and can allow now thoughts and passions to be born. I'll never forget the teacher who gave me back my love of learning. In chapter five Rose talked about lessons that engaged and excited students, having them write about pictures from magazines that caught their attention, how he hung them up to show that these students were just as capable as the others. One thing that always must be said, there is nothing that compares to having a teacher believe in you.

Rose, Chapters 4, 5 & 6

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Rose, Chapters 4, 5 & 6

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Torda's
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ENGL 301